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 histoire des peuples

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tshaashh
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Ven 18 Mai 2012 - 23:33

sorius a écrit:
des caucasiens au maroc !!!

Oui. Il est a noter que les labels tels que "caucase" dans la genealogie genetique ne revetent pas la forme commune (banalisee) de "race par l'apparence". Il n'existe aucune reelle information sur l'apparnece d'une population comme d'une autre. les "cucasiennes" de l'epoque piuvaint resembler a beacoup de choses

Human mitochondrial DNA sequence variation in the Moroccan population of the Souss area

Citation :
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Various populations have contributed to the present-day gene pool of Morocco, including the autochthonous Berber population, Phoenicians, Sephardic Jews, Bedouin Arabs and sub-Saharan Africans.
OBJECTIVE:
The primary objective of the study was to complete a genetic description of the Berber-speaking population in the Souss region of southern Morocco, based on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence analysis.
SUBJECTS AND METHODS:
The first hypervariable segment of the mtDNA control region was sequenced in a sample of 50 individuals from the Souss Valley, and the results compared with the extensive body of data available on mtDNA sequence variation in Europe and sub-Saharan Africa.
RESULTS:
Thirty-four different sequences were found: an estimated 68% of the sequences occurred throughout Europe, West Asia and North Africa, 26% originated in sub-Saharan Africa, and 6% belonged to the North African specific haplogroup U6. The Souss Valley mtDNA sequences indicated the presence of two populations which expanded at different times: the West Eurasian sequences in the Souss sample had a smaller average number of pairwise differences than pairs of sub-Saharan sequences.
CONCLUSION:
Detailed knowledge of the possible geographic origin of each sequence facilitated an interpretation of both internal diversity parameters and between-population relationships. The sub-Saharan admixture in the Souss Valley matched the south-north cline of sub-Saharan influence in North Africa, also evident in the genetic distances of North African populations to Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11393336


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC270091/

Citation :
Attested presence of Caucasian people in Northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times. From the archaeological record it has been proposed that, as early as 45,000 years ago (ya), anatomically modern humans, most probably expanded the Aterian stone industry from the Maghrib into most of the Sahara [1]. More evolved skeletal remains indicate that 20,000 years later the Iberomaurusian makers, replaced the Aterian culture in the coastal Maghrib. Several hypothesis have been forwarded concerning the Iberomaurusian origin. They can be resumed in those which propose an arrival, from the East, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa, and those which point to west Mediterranean Europe, either from the Iberian Peninsula, across the Gibraltar Strait, or from Italy, via Sicily, as their most probable homeland [2]. Between 10,000 and 6,000 ya the Neolithic Capsian industry flourished farther inland. The historic penetration in the area of classical Mediterranean cultures, ending with the Islamic domination, supposed a strong cultural influx. However, it seems that the demic impact was not strong enough to modify the prehistoric genetic pool.

Linguistic research suggests that the Afroasiatic phylum of languages could have originated and extended with these Caucasians, either from the Near East or Eastern Africa and that posterior developments of the Capsian Neolithic in the Maghrib might be related to the origin and dispersal of proto-Berber speaking people into the area [3]. Nowadays, the Berber speakers, scattered throughout Northwest Africa from the Atlantic to the Lybic desert and from the Mediterranean shores to the south of the Sahel, are considered the genuine descendants of those prehistoric colonizers. Some important issues are pending of resolution to clarify the past and present of the North African Caucasians: To which extent the Neolithic waves substituted the Paleolithic recipients? Which is the most probable origin of these prehistoric occupants? Did they come from Europe, East Africa, Southwest Asia or are they a result of an "in situ" evolution? Is there a correspondence between the Afroasiatic diversification and the spread of Caucasians?

Recently, molecular genetic research on North African populations has contributed new data to test the major issues proposed on archaeological, anthropological and linguistic grounds. The studies based on uniparental genetic markers have been particularly informative. Both, mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences [4,5], and Y-chromosome binary markers [6,7] detected specific North African haplotypes that confirm an ancient human colonization for this area and a sharp discontinuity between Northwest Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. From a mtDNA point of view, the most informative of these genetic markers is the North African clade U6. On the basis of complete mtDNA sequences, it has been proposed that U6 lineages, mainly found in North Africa, are the signatures of a return to Africa around 39,000–52,000 ya [8]. This stresses the importance of its detailed study in order to trace one of the earliest Caucasian arrivals to Africa. Although in moderate frequencies, the geographic range of this clade extends from the Near East to the Canary Islands, along the Atlantic shores of Northwest Africa and from the Sahel belt, including Ethiopia, to the southern Mediterranean rim. Out of this area, U6 has only been spotted in the Iberian Peninsula [9-12], Sicily [13], in the north European Ashkenazic Jews [14], and in Ibero-America. The presence in the latter is, most probably, the result of the Spanish and Portuguese colonization [15,16].

encore une fois, dans ces etudes, faire attention a notre propre interpretation de mots "populaires" Wink

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U6mtdna/default.aspx?section=results

le U6, marqueur important chez les femmes marocaines


Afficher U6 mtDNA Map sur une carte plus grande

_________________
Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1


Dernière édition par tshaashh le Ven 18 Mai 2012 - 23:38, édité 1 fois
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Ven 18 Mai 2012 - 23:37

tshaashh a écrit:


Cher Baybars, les haplotypes et groupes sont principalement des indicateurs de paternite (et maternite en mtDNA). n'importe quelle affiliation a une populaiton/culture/region/ethnie ne se fait qu'en correlation avec des facteurs "actuels". en gros, ces etudes ont une grandes valeurs mais les resultats dependent de l'echantillion, au moins. quant a l'interpretation des resultats, il y'en a plusieurs en meme temps, qui peuvent meme etre differnets sans etre contradictoires.

Qu'en est-til du mtDNA?

Une des exemples qui me viens a l'esprit au Maroc est que le Y-DNA haplogroup dominant au Maroc est E1b1b1 (authochtone et d'origine est-afroicaines) tandis que le mtDNA dominant (de mere en fille) est U6, originaire de l'Europe de l'est/caucase.

Normalement ce genre de difference se fait a l'inverse: une population male envahit une region, extermine les males (fin du Y-DNA local) et "se reproduit" avec les femmes locales (continuite du mtDNA local). Comment expliquer le cas Marocain ici? scratch la beaugossite maghrebine a-t-elle ete telle qu'elle a attiree des russes en folie?

Pour le mtDNA, concernant la Turquie, c'est le U (36%), H (33%) et M (10%).

Le U s'étend sur une très large région, des pays Scandinave jusqu'en Inde.. En majorité en Scandinavie, en Iran et dans le Golfe Persique..

Le H, on le trouve en Europe Centrale, surtout dans les régions celtiques. Cela peut s'expliquer par la présence d'une tribu Celte en Anatolie (Galates) qui ont émigrer d'Europe Occidental dans l'actuelle Turquie.

Le M peut s'expliqué la présence d'une grande population originaire d'Inde.
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Ven 18 Mai 2012 - 23:38

juba2 a écrit:
sorius a écrit:
des caucasiens au maroc !!!

Va au rif chez nous et tu verras. example monsieur najib boulif. Very Happy

Juba2, les erreures d'interpretation la plus facile consistent en:

1- melanger les "apparences ethniques": caucasien ne signifie ni "blanc" ni meme indo-europeens. il y'a 25 000 ans les gens partant de l'arfique de l'est vers le M.O pis le caucase ne ressemblaient pas necessairement aux populations actuelles.

EDIT: il n'existe pour le moment pas de correlation entre genotype (Y-DNA et mtDNA) et phenotype (couleur ,traits, apparence). I lexiste une correlatio nentre genotype et predispositions a certaines maladies, allergies etc...


2 - melanger les evenements: Il y' a eu un royaume vandale au nord sans parler de la presence romaine etendue en Mauretanie Tingitane. Ce sont des evenement tres recents par rapports a ces marqueurs qui se situent au plus tard de 2000BC.



Distributions Y-DNA frequents au Maroc, de pere en fils:


Frequency Distribution of Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1b1-M35

http://www.genetree.com/e



Citation :
E1b1b1, defined by M35, is the only known subclade of E1b1b. Estimates place its first appearance in eastern sub-Saharan Africa about 25,000-30,000 years ago. It expanded into North Africa and the Near East at the end of the Paleolithic period (Late Stone Age). E1b1b1 lineages probably dispersed into the Middle East, southern Europe, and southern Africa, each with its own distinctive subclade, by a series of post-glacial (Holocene) migration events. Expansion into southern Europe occurred with Middle Eastern farmers during the Neolithic period. The entry of E1b1b-M81 into Iberia probably occurred with a later migration event via the Straight of Gibraltar when Arab-influenced Berbers occupied the Iberian Peninsula. Consequently, E1b1b1-M35 and its subclades are now the third most frequent haplogroup in Europe.



Frequency Distribution of Y-DNA Haplogroup J1-M267

Citation :

Later, Neolithic farmers would carry J1-M267 into Europe and Ethiopia, and would also be linked to the transition of hunter-gatherer societies to those of settled farming in the Anatolian peninsula. More recent migrations of animal herders would follow to disperse J1-M267 into southern areas of the Middle East and North Africa while post-Neolithic migrations originating from Turkey and the Aegean would facilitate the entry of J2-M172 lineages into Europe (e.g. Crete, southern Italy), likely via maritime routes.



Citation :

IBERIAN R1b HAPLOGROUPS

Haplogroups R1b1b2a2c-M153 and R1b1b2a2d-M167 are considered indigenous to the Iberian Peninsula which encompasses Portugal, Spain, Andorra, Gibraltar, and a portion of France. Evidence suggests that R1b1b2a2c-M153 originated ~18,000 thousand years ago among the Iberian Basques, an ethnic group whose non-IndoEuropean language, Euskara is the oldest surviving language in Europe. Haplogroup R1b1b2a2d-M167 also originated in Iberia but evolved among its non-Basque population


distribution des mtDNA haplogroups frequents au Maroc, de mere en fille:

Haplogroup H



Citation :
Haplogroup H most likely originated about 30,000 years ago probably in an area between the northern part of the Near East and the Caucasus mountain range, a natural border separating Europe and Asia. Populations carrying this variation subsequently expanded into Europe in association with the second Paleolithic expansion, around the time man began using fine blades to create projectile points and to shape stone tools.

J



U



Citation :
Subhaplogroup U6 is typical of North Africa and appears to have originated in the Near East about 40,000 years ago, and subhaplogroup U5 is typical of Europe. Despite the difference in their geographic distributions U5 and U6 are strikingly similar to one another. It has been postulated that the two populations harboring the U6 and U5 mitochondrial DNA variants were living in the same broad geographic area of southwestern Asia when they were affected by an event that led to their expansion and relocation. There was a change in climate conditions about 43,000 years ago which allowed humans to enter the Levant and then Europe and North Africa. Thus, while U5 took part in the first settlement of Europe by modern humans, U6 (and a subclade of M, called M1) entered North Africa giving rise to the so called “Back to Africa” expansion. This scenario reinforces the idea that the first cultures in North Africa and Europe had a common source.



Citation :

Haplogroup L1
Haplogroup L1, arose about 145,000 years ago, likely originated in western Africa, and is nearly absent in eastern and southern Africa. Two subclades comprise haplogroup L1: L1b and L1c. L1b is concentrated in western Africa, but also occurs in central and northern Africa. L1c, which likely originated along the Atlantic coastline of western equatorial Africa, occurs frequently among central African Bantu-speakers.

Not to forget: All Science is Work In Progress

_________________
Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Sam 7 Juil 2012 - 19:37

GIF anime sur les dynasties chinoises (wikipedia)


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Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 3:45

juba2 a écrit:
sorius a écrit:
des caucasiens au maroc !!!

Va au rif chez nous et tu verras. example monsieur najib boulif. Very Happy

Certains ont fait le rapprochement avec les peuples de Syrie/Liban.

Peut etre a l'epoque des Pheniciens.

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الله الوطن الملك
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 6:13

Northrop a écrit:
juba2 a écrit:
sorius a écrit:
des caucasiens au maroc !!!

Va au rif chez nous et tu verras. example monsieur najib boulif. Very Happy

Certains ont fait le rapprochement avec les peuples de Syrie/Liban.

Peut etre a l'epoque des Pheniciens.



Alors ma mere Allah yerehma elle et et sa famille au cheveux blond et yeux bleux et la famille parlait rarement l'arabe etaient des vandals et de romains. SVP eduquez moi, seroeusement study
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 11:12

Si cheveux blod et yeux clair il y a un peu partout au Maroc c'est du comme le signalé Juba, à la présence antique ou pré islamique à des population germanique !

Lorsque leur royaume c'est effondré, beaucoup parmi eux sont resté et se sont mélangé à la population! Idem pour nos ancêtre après la bataille de Poitiers. Beaucoup se sont mélangé à la population ce qui vaut dans cette région des noms de famille comme "noireau" ou des villes comme sainte Maure

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Sois généreux avec nous, Ô toi Dieu et donne nous la Victoire

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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 17:11

@northrop, les peuples de syrie et liban, du cham, sont eux meme un melange entre semites et indo-europeens (empires perse indo-europeen, empires grecs, plus recemments les croisades).

@Fahed64: tout a fait!

@juba2
il y'a eu une presence vandale au nord de l'afrique du nord depuis 430 CE, sans oublier la presence romaine beacucoup plus longue. Ce qu iest difficile est de correler les apparences "ethniques" et l'influence d'une population comme d'une autre.

ainsi nous ne savons pas a quoi ressemblainet vraiement les autochtones de l'afrique du nord ouest, et il y a eau les migration du proche orient (pheniciens) qui eux meme sont melanges, ensuite les romains et les vandales, sans parler de la periode moderne avec la piraterie puis la presence franco-espagnole.

Il serait interessant de participer au Genographic Project de National Geographic mais il faut egalemet se documenter sur le sujet pour d'un cote ne pas tomber dans les interpretations faciles et de l'autre savoir comment toutes ces rechreches historiques ou genetoques peuvent etre biaisees.

EDIT: le test ici est Y-DNA qui se transmet de pere en fils, il existe un autre mtDNA qui se transmet de mere en fille ET fils (mais les fils ne le transmettent pas a leur projeniture)

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/product/genographic-kits/genographic-project-participation-kit-for-u.s.-and-canada?code=SR30002

Royaumes germnaniques






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Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 18:07

http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofworldsu04helm#page/n281/mode/2up



Moorish Cavalry under Lucius Quietus


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Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Dim 8 Juil 2012 - 19:04

http://www.pasteur.fr/~tekaia/BCGA/TALKS/Rym_Kefi.ppt

Citation :
Mitochondrial DNA diversity of Taforalt population [region de Oujda, restes humain datant d'entre 20 000 BP a 13 000 BP]

42,8% (9/21) H ou U
19% (4/21) H

14,2% (3/21) JT

Interessant:

Citation :
In modern Human population, JT is presents only in:
1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco
1,8% of Sicilians,
1,6% of Italians.


Genetic structure of Taforalt:
Eurasiatic Component :
H, U, JT, V: 90,5%
North African component:
U6: 9,5%


The genetic inheritance of Taforalt population (12,000 years) is composed of:
Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V)
North African component (U6).


autre information du PPT: il existe plus de variation mtDNA dans l'afrique subsaharienne que dans le reste du monde

Citation :
Accordingly, Cann and collaborators analysed>>>>>, They noted that Subsaharan african individuals presents the most variable mtdna sequences. Moroover, a parsimonious tree constructed with 133 sequences displays 2 clusters. The basical cluster is composed exclusively of subsaharn african haplotype wheras the second cluster groups sequences from the five geographicals areas. Authors concluded that, mtDNA have been diverged from an ancestral lineage originated in Africa. Cann et al called this hypothesis the : Mitochondrial Eve


Citation :

▢ 2005 / Volume 43 / Issue 1 / pp. 1–11

KÉFI R, STEVANOVITCH A, BOUZAID E, BÉRAUD-COLOMB E
Diversité mitochondriale de la population de taforalt (12.000 ans BP - Maroc): Une approche génétique a l'étude du peuplement de l'Afriquedu nord

Résumé
Les études anthropologiques et génétiques ont révélé la complexité du peuplement de l'Afrique du Nord. Dans le but de contribuer a une meilleure connaissance de la mise en place des populations dans cette région méditerranéenne, nous nous sommes proposés d'étudier la diversité mitochondriale de la population ibéromaurusienne de Taforalt (12.000 ans - Maroc). L'ADN ancien a été extrait d'une trentaine de spécimens exhumés de la grotte épipaléolithique de Taforalt. Nous avons amplifié et séquencé le fragment HVS1 de la région de contrôle de l'ADN mitochondrial. La diversité génétique de la population de Taforalt montre que ce ne sont pas des individus apparentés aux individus subsahariens. L'hypothese d'une origine sub-soudanaise des hommes ibéromaurusiens est rejetée. Nos résultats vont dans le sens d'une origine locale de la population de Taforalt et d'une continuité génétique en Afrique du Nord.

Mots clés
ADN ancien - ADN mitochondrial - Ibéromaurusien - Epipaléolithique - Taforalt - Afrique du Nord

Abstract
The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region. Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.

Key words
Ancient DNA - Mitochondrial DNA polymorphism - Ibero-Maurusian - Epipaleolithic - Taforalt - North Africa.

http://puvodni.mzm.cz/Anthropologie/article.php?ID=94

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Citation :
One should then look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. [...] The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and to reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of the monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after (the world of monkeys). This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.


Ibn Khaldoun, Al Mouqaddimah (1377 - Franz Rosenthal translation), Ch.1
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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Sam 8 Oct 2016 - 23:05


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MessageSujet: Re: histoire des peuples    Sam 8 Oct 2016 - 23:40

Très intéressant, merci pour la video.
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