Venezuela VS Colombia

une situation qui nous est assez proche, le voisin pétrolier et ses pratiques destabilisatrices....

Citation :

Venezuela freezes relations with Colombia


CNN) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez froze diplomatic relations with Colombia late Tuesday, citing verbal aggressions from the neighboring South American country.

The televised announcement followed declarations from the Colombian government Monday that anti-tank weapons purchased by Venezuela ended up in the hands of the guerrilla Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, known as the FARC. In addition, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said the guerrillas were trying to buy anti-aircraft missiles. Venezuela received a shipment of Russian SA-24 Igla shoulder-fired missiles earlier this year and showed them off at military parade in April.

Chavez recalled Venezuela's ambassador to Colombia, as well as most of the embassy's staff.

"Leave only the lowest functionaries," he said.

Chavez also threatened to take over Colombian companies operating in Venezuela if Colombia offends Venezuela one more time.

Colombia's claims are "mistaken," added Chavez, who called the country's leaders "irresponsible."

There was no immediate reaction from the Colombian government.

Tuesday's developments came one day after Chavez signed a military agreement with Russia to buy enough BMP-3 armored fighting vehicles and T-72 tanks to double the nation's inventory, according to the Jane's Defense Weekly publication. Chavez said he will use the tanks in his "Western Shield Plan" on the border with Colombia.

Tensions between the two countries have been on high heat since March 2008, when Chavez ordered tanks to the border in response to a Colombian attack on FARC bases in Ecuador. More recently, Chavez has severely criticized Uribe for entering into negotiations to allow the United States to open military bases in Colombia.

The United States says it needs the bases because Ecuador has ordered the closing of a U.S. installation there. Chavez accuses the United States of wanting the bases so it can attack Venezuela.

Analysts say Chavez's feelings toward the United States have a lot to do with his actions.

"Chavez hates the United States and he wants to lead a group of countries that don't pay attention to the United States," said Myles Frechette, the U.S. ambassador to Colombia from 1994-97. "Uribe is a guy who is in tune with the United States."

Frechette notes that "Colombia and Venezuela have complementary economies" and could sell more goods to each other under better conditions.

Jennifer McCoy, director of the Americas Program at the Carter Center, makes the same point.

"It's a conflict between two ideologies between two countries that are mutually dependent on each other," she said.

The latest dust-up started Monday, when Colombia accused Venezuela of selling arms to the FARC.

Colombian Vice President Francisco Santos said army troops had found AT-4 shoulder-fired grenades in recent raids on jungle camps used by the FARC.

"This is not the first time that this happens," Santos said. "In several operations in which we have recovered weapons from the FARC, we have found powerful munitions and powerful equipment, including anti-tank weapons, from a European country that sold them to Venezuela and that turned up in the hands of the FARC."

More ominously, though, Uribe said the guerrillas were trying to buy anti-aircraft missiles. Analysts say that could change the guerrilla war's dynamics.

"The AT-4 is much less of a heavy weapon, but surface-to-air missiles would give the FARC a much greater military capability," said Anna Gilmour, senior America's analyst for the Jane's Country Risk consultancy group.

Uribe said Monday that must not be allowed to happen.

"The international community must help us," he said. "These bandits have historically been able to rely on many sources for armaments. We have found out through intelligence that they are now looking to buy surface-to-air weapons to use against our airplanes."

Venezuelan officials denied any involvement.

"To me it seems that this is a new attack against our government based on lies," Venezuelan Minister of the Interior and Justice Tareck El Aissami said at a news conference Monday. "We absolutely deny that our government or our institutions are providing assistance to criminal and terrorist organizations.

"It's laughable, it sounds like a cheap film made by the American government."

But officials in Sweden, where the anti-tank weapons were made by Saab Bofors Dynamics, verified that the AT-4s were sold to Venezuela in the 1980s.

Anders Jorle, Sweden's foreign ministry spokesman, told CNN the government "considers this as a serious incident" and is investigating.

"We've been in contact with Colombian and Venezuelan authorities to clarify how this happened," Jorle said Tuesday. "The weapons were part of a lot sold to Venezuela 20 years ago. No weapons have been exported to Venezuela since 2006."

The Swedish Foreign Ministry added that the Swedish Inspectorate of Strategic Products, the authority responsible for checking weapon exports, will consider not selling any more weapons to Venezuela.

The FARC most likely acquired the AT-4 grenade launchers in the past 18 months, said Jane's analyst Gilmour.

This is not the first time that Venezuela has been tied to the FARC, which has been fighting the Colombian government for more than 45 years.

Last fall, the U.S. Treasury Department accused two senior Venezuelan intelligence officials and a former official of providing weapons to the FARC and assisting the rebels with narcotics trafficking. The U.S. identified one of the individuals as Hugo Armando Carvajal Barrios, director of Venezuela's Military Intelligence Directorate.

Another individual was identified as Ramon Emilio Rodriguez Chacin, who was Venezuela's Minister of Interior and Justice until September.

Rodriguez Chacin was "the Venezuelan government's main weapons contact for the FARC," the Treasury Department said. "The FARC uses its proceeds from narcotics sales to purchase weapons from the Venezuelan government. Rodriguez Chacin has held numerous meetings with senior FARC members, one of which occurred at the Venezuelan government's Miraflores Palace in late 2007. Rodriguez Chacin has also assisted the FARC by trying to facilitate a $250 million dollar loan from the Venezuelan government to the FARC in late 2007."

Computers recovered last year in the Colombian attack on the FARC base in Ecuador showed that "Chavez has been heavily involved with the FARC," said Susan Kaufman Purcell, director of the Center for Hemispheric Policy at the University of Miami.

"Chavez has been modeling himself more on what [former Cuban leader Fidel] Castro used to do in terms of helping insurgencies and destabilizing countries," Purcell said.

Analysts point to Venezuela's increasing militarization as a threat to stability. From 2005-07, Venezuela bought $4.4 billion in weapons and military hardware, including 24 Sukhoi-24 aircraft, 50 combat helicopters and 100,000 AK-103 assault rifles, Gilmour said. Last year, Russia extended a $1 billion credit line for further acquisitions.

"Venezuela has been trying to frighten everyone in the region by buying Russian weapons," said former U.S. envoy Frechette.

He said Chavez has become increasingly frustrated that he doesn't always get his way, such as in his relations with Colombia. So he turns to the Russians.

"It's almost like a bully," Frechette said. "When his bluff is called, he tried to call his fat father for help."

Chavez's involvement in the sale of the anti-tank weapons to the FARC is open to discussion, though.

"The more interesting question is how they got there and whether Chavez had anything to do with it," Purcell said.

Frechette agrees, saying, "Nobody can say this was done by Chavez."

The former envoy believes there's a good chance that the sale was carried out by corrupt officers without Chavez's involvement.

"Don't underestimate the corruption in that country," he said, adding that some military officials might have "discovered these things that have been sitting in a warehouse since the 1980s."

Whether Venezuela would sell surface-to-air missiles also is open to discussion.

Gilmour says Venezuela will want to safeguard its stockpile.

"Venezuela would not want any kind of seepage because the missiles were acquired so recently and Venezuela-Russia relations are pretty positive at the moment," she said.

Purcell said Russia might not care, pointing out that "Castro did all sorts of things that the Soviets didn't like" but still kept supporting him for decades.

"Russia has a lot of different interests," she said. "It's not clear that they would walk away from the relationship."

les roquettes dont parle l'article

personnelement je soutiens à fond la Colombie ..

ce barbare de chavez est un danger public

Citation :

CARACAS, July 23 (Xinhua) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Thursday that the installation of U.S. military bases in Colombia, Venezuela's neighbor, is "an unfriendly act."

Chavez said Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro on Wednesday met with Maria Luisa Chiappe, Colombia's ambassadress to Caracas, to inform her of the Venezuelan posture.
The president expressed concern about the increasing presence of U.S. military bases in the region, which he said "obliges us to review the full scheme of our ties with Colombia."
U.S. military bases in Colombia could be used to carry out attacks on Venezuela, thus bringing danger to the peace in South America, he said.
Chavez added that in view of this, Venezuela's delegation would not attend a high-level meeting with Colombia scheduled for this week.
Colombian officials have said the country is planning four new U.S. military bases near its border with Venezuela .
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-07/24/content_11763810.htm

Citation :

Alarm at US-Colombia troops plan

South American leaders at a regional summit have expressed fresh concerns over Colombian plans to grant American troops access to its military bases.
But at the gathering in Ecuador, they rejected a proposal to formally condemn the proposals, which would allow US access up to seven Colombian bases.
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez warned that "the winds of war were beginning to blow" across the region.
Colombia says it needs US support to tackle drug lords and left-wing rebels.
The US wants to relocate its base for anti-drug operations in Latin America to Colombia, after Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa refused to extend an agreement allowing US access to a military base in Ecuador.
'Unease'
The Brazilian president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva - whose government had previously described the plans as a matter for Colombia - called for a meeting between US President Barack Obama and the region's leaders to discuss their concerns directly.
"As president of Brazil, this climate of unease disturbs me," said Mr Silva, reports AP news agency. "I think we should directly discuss our discontent with the American government."
But during Monday's Union of South American Nations (Unasur) summit in the Ecuadorean capital, Quito, Mr Chavez led criticism of the Colombia-US accord.
The Venezuelan leader warned that the July agreement between Bogota and Washington "could generate a war in South America".
BBC South America correspondent Candace Piette says that in a news conference at the end of their meeting, held in an ancient church in Quito, the 12 presidents looked uncomfortable.
Although a number of countries in the region had previously expressed alarm over the plan, the summit failed to back Venezuelan and Bolivian calls for a joint statement condemning the move.
Instead, Unasur members agreed to hold talks - in Argentina later this month - to discuss the controversial Colombian-US proposal.
Colombian President Alvaro Uribe, a staunch American ally, toured the region last week in an effort to persuade leaders that an expanded US presence would not threaten any other nation in South America.
But correspondents say South American leaders would like firm assurances from Washington that the US forces would not operate outside Colombian territory.
'Provocation'
Monday's Unasur summit was held amid growing tensions between Colombia and Venezuela. The Colombian president did not attend the meeting in Quito.
Ecuador severed relations with Colombia after Bogota ordered a raid over the border in March 2008 on a left-wing Farc guerrilla camp.
On Sunday Mr Chavez stepped up accusations against Mr Uribe, saying Colombian soldiers had recently been spotted crossing the Orinoco river, which forms part of the border, and entering Venezuelan territory.
He said the alleged incursion was a "provocation" and put Venezuelan troops on a war footing along the border with Colombia.
The foreign ministry in Bogota said the Venezuelan claims were "not true", because it had checked with Colombian military commanders near the border and they had not reported any such incursion.
"The Yankees have started to command Colombian military forces," Mr Chavez also said on Sunday.
Last week, Mr Obama said the Colombia-US plan would merely update an existing accord, Plan Colombia, whereby US military personnel already help the Colombians fight drug trafficking and left-wing rebels.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8194497.stm

marques a écrit:

personnelement je soutiens à fond la Colombie ..

ce barbare de chavez est un danger public

Qui présente Chavez comme un barbare et pour servir quelle cause? Qui présente Uribe comme un brave gars et pour servir quelle cause? Qui a inventé la doctrine Monroe et pourquoi? Quels sont les deux plus gros producteurs de drogue (Héroïne et cocaïne) au monde, alliés des USA, et qui n'arrivent pas, par un hasard malencontreux, à éradiquer cette production? Dans quels coffres, situés dans quels pays, dorment les milliards de dollars que rapporte le trafic de stupéfiants? Qui a redéfinit la liste noire des paradis fiscaux "non coopératifs" dans le monde, liste dans laquelle n'apparaît comme par hasard, ni Gibraltar, ni Jersey, ni Guernesey, ni l'ile de Man, ni... les iles Caïmans (scandale Madoff et ses 50 milliards de dollars) et pourquoi?

rafi a écrit:

marques a écrit:

personnelement je soutiens à fond la Colombie ..

ce barbare de chavez est un danger public

Qui présente Chavez comme un barbare et pour servir quelle cause? Qui présente Uribe comme un brave gars et pour servir quelle cause? Qui a inventé la doctrine Monroe et pourquoi? Quels sont les deux plus gros producteurs de drogue (Héroïne et cocaïne) au monde, alliés des USA, et qui n'arrivent pas, par un hasard malencontreux, à éradiquer cette production? Dans quels coffres, situés dans quels pays, dorment les milliards de dollars que rapporte le trafic de stupéfiants? Qui a redéfinit la liste noire des paradis fiscaux "non coopératifs" dans le monde, liste dans laquelle n'apparaît comme par hasard, ni Gibraltar, ni Jersey, ni Guernesey, ni l'ile de Man, ni... les iles Caïmans (scandale Madoff et ses 50 milliards de dollars) et pourquoi?

Chavez n'est pas un barbar, c'est un homme de principes qui a ses propres convictions, malheureusement ses principes n'arrangent pas le maroc étant un pays du clan ''libéral''... ça me suffit pour ne pas supporter Chavez et pour souhaiter sa perte, car la politique rime rarement avec les principes, ce sont les interets qui comptent...

chavez est contre l'intégrité territoriale du Maroc et çà me suffit pour le cataloguer ..

je ne suis pas venezuelien mais Marocain ....chavez ne m'apporte RIEN , sinon al halak et l'adversité ...

et en souvenir des milliers de soldats Marocains morts pour défendre le pays, je ne peux que cataloguer chavez comme un barbare inculte !!

je n'ai pour lui aucune sympathie et toute personne qui attaquera mon pays sera catalogué de la même façon ..

quant à ses histoires de socialisme tropical et autres démagogies vaseuses, çà ne m'interesse pas et çà ne lui donne pas le droit de m'enlever mon Sahara ...

marques a écrit:

chavez est contre l'intégrité territoriale du Maroc et çà me suffit pour le cataloguer...

Ah d'accord, ça n'a donc rien à voir avec la situation entre Colombie et Vénézuela. Je peux dès lors mieux comprendre ta position.

Chaque chose à sa place. Je ne vais pas soutenir Chavez en raison de son soutien aux Polzs, même si notre diplomatie a tout fait pour qu'il se comporte ainsi. Nous sommes en partie responsable de son soutien aux Polzs et je peux personnellement en témoigner.
Mais ce n'est pas une raison pour se montrer aveugle et sourd. Chavez représente l'Amérique latine des laissés pour compte du libéralisme et Uribe l'élite sud-américaine qui vit sur le dos des pauvres et s'est vendue aux USA, outre les trafiquants de drogue et autres fauteurs de troubles.
"Socialisme tropicale" Demande à ceux qui vivent dans les bidonvilles de Caracas, les paysans sans terre, les ouvriers surexploités, si c'est du socialisme tropical. A moins que tu ne soutienne l'exploitation éhontée de l'homme par l'homme. Et tout ça n'a quasiment rien à voir avec notre sahara.
Sachons raison garder. Ce n'est pas parce que nous nous trouvons dans le camp des USA que nous devons avaler leurs mensonges comme du petit lait. En la matière, je ne me fais pas d'illusions sur nos alliés, mais je reconnais que nous devons veiller d'abord sur nos propres interêts. Plutôt que de soutenir une cause injuste pour plaire à nos alliés, qui ne nous demandent même pas notre appui dans ce sens, le plus sage serait d'adopter officiellement une stricte neutralité.
Personne ne nous demande notre avis, aussi il vaut mieux se taire et se faire oublier. Par contre les prises de positions irréfléchies, comme celle que nous avons adopté contre l'Iran, peuvent nous valoir bien des déboires
C'est bête de se créer ainsi soit même des ennemis et de passer aux yeux de l'opinion publique mondiale pour des "beni oui-oui", prêts à se chamailler avec des gens qui ne nous rien fait, en bons caniches à la solde des Américains. Ne rêvons pas, Chavez, nous nous en sommes fait un ennemi nous mêmes. Et si on continue comme ça, nous arriverons à nous faire encore plus d'ennemis gratuitement

Fremo a écrit:

Citation :

Chavez to troops: Prepare for war with Colombia
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Sunday ordered Venezuela's military to prepare for a possible armed conflict with Colombia, saying his country's soldiers should be ready if the United States attempts to provoke a war between the South American neighbors.
Chavez said Venezuela could end up going to war with Colombia as tensions between them rise, and he warned that if a conflict broke out "it could extend throughout the whole continent."


"The best way to avoid war is preparing for it," Chavez told military officers during his weekly television and radio program. Venezuela's socialist leader has also cited a recent deal between Bogota and Washington giving US troops greater access to military bases as a threat to regional stability.
The government of Colombian President Alvaro rejected what it called "threats of war from Venezuela's government," saying it would protest Chavez's comments to the Organization of American States and the UN Security Council.


Source :: Jpost

Citation :

Colombia turns to UN, OAS after Venezuela war talk

BOGOTA (Reuters) - Colombia said on Sunday it will appeal to the U.N. Security Council and the OAS after Hugo Chavez, the fiery leftist president of neighboring Venezuela, ordered his army to prepare for war in order to assure peace.

For months Chavez has said that a military cooperation pact signed last month between Bogota and Washington could set the stage for a U.S. invasion of Venezuela from Colombian territory.

The United States and Colombia dismiss that idea, saying cooperation is aimed strictly at fighting drug traffickers and Marxist insurgents within Colombia.

During a Sunday television address, Chavez ordered his military to prepare for war as the best way to preserve peace in the region. Colombian President Alvaro Uribe shot back with a statement rejecting Chavez's remarks.

"Considering the threats of war enunciated by the government of Venezuela, the government of Colombia proposes going to the Organization of American States and the Security Council of the United Nations," the statement said.

Colombia also called for "frank dialogue" with Venezuela over their long-simmering diplomatic spat.

Venezuela has spent more than $3 billion on arms, prompting U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to warn against an arms race in the region.

Colombia recently asked the World Trade Organization to intercede after Chavez blocked the import of some Colombian goods in protest of the U.S. military pact.

After the United States, the neighboring Andean countries are each other's second biggest trade partners. Commerce last year between Colombia and Venezuela was more than $7 billion.

Colombia says the blocking of imports has exacerbated the country's recession and hurt an export sector already clobbered by low global demand brought by the world financial crisis.

Washington sees Uribe as a buffer against Chavez and other socialists in the region such as Rafael Correa of Ecuador, a country that also shares a border with Colombia.

The three leaders have all moved to extend their time in power through Constitutional changes allowing for re-election.
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5A80B020091109

3 jours avant =>

Citation :

Venezuela sends 15,000 troops to Colombia border

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez's government is sending 15,000 soldiers to the border with Colombia, saying the military buildup is needed to increase security, combat drug trafficking and root out paramilitary groups.

The deployment to the Venezuelan border states of Zulia, Tachira, Apure, Amazonas and Bolivar follows shootings involving troops and gunmen that have heightened tensions between the two countries. The latest came Thursday when pro-Chavez lawmaker Iris Varela said Venezuelan soldiers killed a suspected Colombian paramilitary fighter and detained five others near the border.

Venezuela has long complained that Colombia isn't containing the violence from its decades-long armed conflict involving leftist rebels and right-wing paramilitaries.

Repeating a frequent charge by Venezuela, Vice President Ramon Carrizalez accused Colombia on Thursday of intentionally allowing violence to spill over the border as a means of "destabilizing" Chavez's government.

"Colombia has been creating a pre-war atmosphere," Carrizalez said.

Chavez has also called an agreement giving U.S. military personnel expanded access to Colombian bases a threat to Venezuela's security, but the Venezuelan troop buildup on the frontier has nothing to do with the pact signed last week, officials said.

Colombian Foreign Minister Jaime Bermudez did not address those accusations at a news conference in Bogota on Thursday, but he acknowleged that relations are poor. He said President Alvaro Uribe's government hopes to ease tensions "by talking, and we're ready to do that."

Venezuela's government did not provide details about Thursday's gunbattle, but Varela said authorities were searching for other militia fighters after the shootout on a farm near the border city of San Antonio in western Tachira state.

Venezuelan officials also have blamed Colombian militiamen for Monday's shooting deaths of two National Guard soldiers near the border. Authorities arrested one suspect — a Venezuelan man — and said they were searching for three more people.

Authorities on Thursday recovered two assault rifles that were stolen from the slain National Guard soldiers, along with a body that had yet to be identified, Justice Minister Tareck El Aissami said.

Some of Chavez's critics say the socialist leader is intentionally picking a fight with Colombia to turn public attention away from pressing domestic problems such as rampant crime, a weak economy and rationing of electricity and water.

National Guard troops detained about 100 Colombians on Thursday in southwestern Barinas state for allegedly entering the country illegally, National Guard Gen. Vladimir Padrino told the state-run Bolivarian News Agency.

Tensions have been running high in Tachira state, where the bullet-ridden bodies of 11 men, nine of them Colombians, were found last month after being abducted from a soccer field.

Carrizalez has said those victims apparently belonged to Colombian paramilitary groups, though he didn't address suspicions they could have been killed by Colombia's leftist rebels.

Du spéctacle en perspective les gars, préparez coca et pop corn

les colombiens ont l'une des armées les plus aggueri au combat, très réputée pour ces forces spéciales, qui ont accumulé une longue experience dans le combat dans la jungle ! mais je crains que l'aviation leurs fera défaut, les 12 Kfir C10 et 12 mirages V colombiens, ne feront pas le poids face à 24 F16A, 18 F5A/B et 24 SU30MKV vénézueliens...

c est toujour la meme histoire, un zozo avec des sous qui coule a flot, qui part en rusie acheter deux joujou , et se croit invincible!

si cela se confirmme sa va etre du paint beni pour les usa pour lui rabaisser sont caquer, a moin que cela se passe s en qu obama ne sourcil (sa m ettonerait c la tension serait au porte des USA)

mohime selon moi Chavez n est pas de taille a ffronter la colombie, il va se cassez les dent dans une telle aventure.

bien sur si tous cela se confirme.

FAMAS a écrit:

les colombiens ont l'une des armées les plus aggueri au combat, très réputée pour ces forces spéciales, qui ont accumulé une longue experience dans le combat dans la jungle ! mais je crains que l'aviation leurs fera défaut, les 12 Kfir C10 et 12 mirages V colombiens, ne feront pas le poids face à 24 F16A, 18 F5A/B et 24 SU30MKV vénézueliens...

Les F-16 il n'y en a plus que 3 qui volent (manque de pieces) (source: FlightGlobal), et les F-5A/B ils ne servent á rien. En gros il n'a que des Su-30 á faire piloter par des inexpérimentés. Je ne parle pas d'un Su-30 (et sa gourmandise) comme ca souffre en climat tropical!
Sinon, les americains voleront au secours de la Colombie, pareil pour les espagnols (qui ont promis á la Colombie une dizine de F-1). Par contre Chavez y'aura personne pour l'aider... ah, si... Cuba

TooNs a écrit:

FAMAS a écrit:

les colombiens ont l'une des armées les plus aggueri au combat, très réputée pour ces forces spéciales, qui ont accumulé une longue experience dans le combat dans la jungle ! mais je crains que l'aviation leurs fera défaut, les 12 Kfir C10 et 12 mirages V colombiens, ne feront pas le poids face à 24 F16A, 18 F5A/B et 24 SU30MKV vénézueliens...

Les F-16 il n'y en a plus que 3 qui volent (manque de pieces) (source: FlightGlobal), et les F-5A/B ils ne servent á rien. En gros il n'a que des Su-30 á faire piloter par des inexpérimentés. Je ne parle pas d'un Su-30 (et sa gourmandise) comme ca souffre en climat tropical!
Sinon, les americains voleront au secours de la Colombie, par contre Chavez y'aura personne pour l'aider... ah, si... Cuba

et les Mirages V sont en train d'etre cedés a l'Equateur . Quand aux Su 30 " souffrant en climat tropical " j'avoue que la tu m'interesses ...tu pourrais developper ?
Concernant la gourmandise , tu fait surement allusion au kerozene : De toute facon le Flanker est l'appareil de combat qui a la plus grande autonomie en interne de la region , il est ravitaillable en vol , le Venezuela a recu ou va recevoir des IL 78 Midas et le cout du carburant ce n'est pas vraiment un probleme pour Chavez ...

les Kfir Colombiens ont reçus des Kfir supplementaires dernierement et leurs Kfirs ont aussi subit une cure de jouvence chez IAI , il sont comme neuf

reese a écrit:

Quand aux Su 30 " souffrant en climat tropical " j'avoue que la tu m'interesses ...tu pourrais developper ?
Concernant la gourmandise , tu fait surement allusion au kerozene : De toute facon le Flanker est l'appareil de combat qui a la plus grande autonomie en interne de la region , il est ravitaillable en vol , le Venezuela a recu ou va recevoir des IL 78 Midas et le cout du carburant ce n'est pas vraiment un probleme pour Chavez ...

Un coucou en climat tropical, ca souffre...
Un coucou qui bouffe bcp, en climat tropical ca bouffe encore plus...
Ajouté á ces deux détails, la manoeuvrabilite de camion et la masse du coucou, eh bien, c'est tout simplement un beau spectacle!

TooNs a écrit:

reese a écrit:

Quand aux Su 30 " souffrant en climat tropical " j'avoue que la tu m'interesses ...tu pourrais developper ?
Concernant la gourmandise , tu fait surement allusion au kerozene : De toute facon le Flanker est l'appareil de combat qui a la plus grande autonomie en interne de la region , il est ravitaillable en vol , le Venezuela a recu ou va recevoir des IL 78 Midas et le cout du carburant ce n'est pas vraiment un probleme pour Chavez ...

Un coucou en climat tropical, ca souffre...
Un coucou qui bouffe bcp, en climat tropical ca bouffe encore plus...
Ajouté á ces deux détails, la manoeuvrabilite de camion et la masse du coucou, eh bien, c'est tout simplement un beau spectacle!

Manoeuvrabilité de camion pour un Su-30 ... ?

le SU30MKV a une SER gigantesque, mais ça reste un chasseur de 4ème génération, à moins qu'on sous-estime les performances des C10 colombiens...

Citation :

the avionics system equipping the Kfir C-10 places the aircraft at the forefront of fighter design in terms of its human engineering, radar performance, weapons delivery and navigational accuracy, maintainability and growth potential. The Kfir C-10's flexible centralized avionics architecture enables the following features to be incorporated:


Pilot friendly advanced ?Glass? Cockpit
Hands On Throttle And Stick (HOTAS) operation Advanced multi-mode Fire Control Radar (FCR) with SAR
State-of-the-art weapons delivery, including Beyond Visual Range missiles
Digital Moving Map (DMM)
Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite
The Kfir C-10 draws upon the operational experience of IAF pilots to provide an optimized cockpit layout and man machine interface. The HOTAS controlled cockpit is equipped with a new Head Up Display (HUD), two 5"x5" Multi Function Color Displays (MFCDs), Up Front Control Panel (UFCP) and an optional Helmet Mounted Display System (HMDS), affording outstanding situational awareness and efficient avionics and weapons system operation. Furthermore, by providing only that information which is required for each mission segment, the Kfir C-10's easy to use menu driven display screens minimize clutter and afford reduced pilot workload.
Also included in the Kfir C-10 avionics system is IAI/Elta's operationally proven EL/M-2032 multi-mode fire control radar, which offers a wide range of air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including SAR, for optimal mission performance in all weather conditions. The Kfir C-10 can incorporate additional advanced sensors that provide highly effective day/night target detection and designation capabilities.

The Kfir is in service with many satisfied customers worldwide and has contributed greatly to the excellent reputation enjoyed by Lahav. The list of countries that operate the Kfir includes Colombia, Ecuador and other classified users. The Kfir aircraft has recently seen a great deal of action with a classified Air Force, which is exploiting its exceptional air-to-ground capabilities.

le EL/M-2032 a une range en A-A de 80MN soit un peu pres 148KM, ajoutant la possibilité de tirer des Python Mk3 et MK4, ce qui fait du Kfir C10 un chasseur-défensif respectable...

TooNs a écrit:

reese a écrit:

Quand aux Su 30 " souffrant en climat tropical " j'avoue que la tu m'interesses ...tu pourrais developper ?
Concernant la gourmandise , tu fait surement allusion au kerozene : De toute facon le Flanker est l'appareil de combat qui a la plus grande autonomie en interne de la region , il est ravitaillable en vol , le Venezuela a recu ou va recevoir des IL 78 Midas et le cout du carburant ce n'est pas vraiment un probleme pour Chavez ...

Un coucou en climat tropical, ca souffre...
Un coucou qui bouffe bcp, en climat tropical ca bouffe encore plus...
Ajouté á ces deux détails, la manoeuvrabilite de camion et la masse du coucou, eh bien, c'est tout simplement un beau spectacle!

Sources ?
pas de sources comme toujours

TooNs a écrit:

Un coucou en climat tropical, ca souffre...
Un coucou qui bouffe bcp, en climat tropical ca bouffe encore plus...
Ajouté á ces deux détails, la manoeuvrabilite de camion et la masse du coucou, eh bien, c'est tout simplement un beau spectacle!

heu les F16 et les F 5 sont censé etre en inox ? quand a la manoeuvrabilité de " camion " du Flanker tu fais sans doute allusion a ce camion la :

Spoiler:

tu as un "humour" assez special quand meme ...

le fait que les algériens pensent que chavez a ses chances et les marocains pensent le contraire me rappelle les muftis irakiens et saoudiens à l'époque de la guerre du golf, où chacun, en utilisant la religion, essayait de prouver qu'il avait raison, ce qui prouve en finale qu'il ne réfléchissait même pas.

Vous savez bien que lorsqu'on débat sur un conflit X Vs Y sur ce forum la règle est de ne commenter que les aspects militaires et stratégiques pures (Positionnement des ports, points sensibles de l'économie ... etc), tout ce qui est du type l'oncle sam va y mettre du sien ou le peuple va se soulever est à laisser à l'entrée, en plus il faut veiller à argumenter chacune des affirmations (i.e partir des axiomes en suivant un certains nombre de règles de déduction bien définies ) donc quand on dit que les flankers vont soufrir en climat tropical il faudra sortir des sources, et quand on veut répliquer on peut faire l'effort de sortir des sources qui disent le contraire.

freedom a écrit:

le fait que les algériens pensent que chavez a ses chances et les marocains pensent le contraire me rappelle les muftis irakiens et saoudiens à l'époque de la guerre du golf, où chacun, en utilisant la religion, essayait de prouver qu'il avait raison, ce qui prouve en finale qu'il ne réfléchissait même pas.

Vous savez bien que lorsqu'on débat sur un conflit X Vs Y sur ce forum la règle est de ne commenter que les aspects militaires et stratégiques pures (Positionnement des ports, points sensibles de l'économie ... etc), tout ce qui est du type l'oncle sam va y mettre du sien ou le peuple va se soulever est à laisser à l'entrée, en plus il faut veiller à argumenter chacune des affirmations (i.e partir des axiomes en suivant un certains nombre de règles de déduction bien définies ) donc quand on dit que les flankers vont soufrir en climat tropical il faudra sortir des sources, et quand on veut répliquer on peut faire l'effort de sortir des sources qui disent le contraire.

Mon ami, je ne crois pas qu'on ait besoin de sortir des sources pour dire qu'un avion avec une humidité a 75% ca souffre enormément!

donc tous les pays avec humidité volent sur des secoupes volantes?
le vietnam n´a pas vu une belle campagne aerienne US,le bresil n´a pas de F-5/F2000 etc..