Armée Turque/Turkish Armed Forces/Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri

Rappel du premier message :

A-1600 TCG Iskenderun & A-577 TCG Sokullu Mehmet Pasa entrant dans le port d'Odessa (Ukraine)

T-HR2 a écrit:

Salam ,

Concernant le HQ-9 , c'est une version plus avances que l'on aura de ce que je constate avec le developpement en commun , mais le temps que cette version entre en service , allons nous avoir des batterie du HQ-9 pour avoir une couverture le temps que notre systeme entre en service ? Si oui quel version du HQ-9 , et pour quand est-ce prevu  ?

On aura rien du tout, ça fait 20 ans qu'on doit acheter un système type Patriot.

On garde les Nike Hercules je sais pas pourquoi.

On attendra quelques années encore.

Donc on va co-developper un systeme en se basant sur le HQ-9 , et en attendant que sa rentre en service aucune batterie de HQ-9 ? Bon tres bien .

Et le contrat est sceller ou il peut encore , sous pression us notamment avec des attaque d'ordre economique , politique , mouvement contestataire , etre annuler ?

C'est surtout sa la question : Est-ce que ce programme ressemble au multiple programme nucleaire commencer puis annuler , recommencer puis de nouveau annuler ?

Le HQ-9 a l'air d'etre meilleur que le PAC-3 , cependant j'ai toujours pas compris un des forumeur qui parlais d'injecter du samp/t ?

Est-ce que cet avances du dossier peut etre un coup de bluff pour que les russes acceptent finalement les meme condition que les chinois , autant de batterie , ToT , et co-developpement du S-400 ?

T-HR2, rien n'est signé, si tu lis doc du SSM, tu verras qu'il parle d'ouverture de négociations, je l'ai dit l'autre jour un peu comme Rafale en Inde.

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/anasayfa/hizli/duyurular/PressReleases/Sayfalar/20130926_SSIK.aspx

Le-S400 a toujours sa chance ou bien si le dossier HQ-9 est annuler on annule le bid ey on pars sur un systeme longue portee nationale ?

T-HR2 a écrit:

Le-S400 a toujours sa chance ou bien si le dossier HQ-9 est annuler on annule le bid ey on pars sur un systeme longue portee nationale ?

Y a jamais eu de S-400, y a Antey-2500 (S-300VM) celui proposé à l'Iran.

"On pourra pas faire un système nationale dans un délai raisonnable" (Murad Bayar).

On doit attendre de long mois avant d'en savoir plus, il faut être patient ... là on fait juste spéculer.

Alloudi a écrit:

la grande inconnu, c est,

que vaut le HQ-9 par apport a ses concurent (PMU-2, patriot...?)  

j'avais vu dans un article que le HQ-9 avait des problème si je retrouve cette article je le poste


donc des gros doutes sur son efficacité.

la seule valeur sur c'est le patriot car il a été éprouvé par la guerre.

Franchement si le dossier HQ-9 , Tombe a l'eau , et comme dit le ssm nous ne somme pas en mesure de realises notre systeme locale dans un delai raisonnable , je pense que pour le S-300 on prendra pas , aster 30 sa serait une surprise incomprehensible vu les relation avec la France , le pac-3 , systeme douteux niveau pourcentage en efficaciter je trouve car beaucoup en ont parler , puis pour chacun des candidats c'est du style achete mais ne demande pas comment on fabrique ...

Il en reste un . Et vu les relation sa m'etonnerais pas et je pense qu'ils sont eux , c'est contradictoire a plein d'egard , pas contre un tot et co developpement : Iron dome .

Soit il officialise sa , ou soit il font toujours semblant d'avoir couper les relation avec eux , et officialise que l'on ira le developper nous meme , et en coulisse avec l'apport israelien ...

Citation :

Défense : les Etats-Unis préoccupés par le choix de la Turquie d'acheter un système d'armes stratégique chinois  

  Pourtant membre de l'OTAN, la Turquie avait choisi un groupe chinois pour la fourniture d'un système de défense aérienne stratégique. Un contrat évalué à 4 milliards de dollars.  

Les Etats-Unis ont fait part à la Turquie de leurs "sérieuses préoccupations" à propos de la décision d'Ankara d'acquérir un système de défense antimissile à une société chinoise visée par des sanctions américaines, a tonné samedi le Pentagone. La Turquie, membre de l'Otan, a annoncé cette semaine avoir engagé des pourparlers sur le système FD-2000 de la société China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. (CPMIEC), choisi de préférence à celui d'autres sociétés concurrentes, russe (Rosoboronexport), américaine (Raytheon) et franco-italienne (Eurosam).

La CPMIEC est visée par des sanctions américaines pour violation du Nonproliferation Act avec l'Iran, la Syrie et la Corée du Nord. "Nous avons transmis au gouvernement turc nos sérieuses préoccupations au sujet des pourparlers qu'il mène avec une société sanctionnée par les Etats-Unis pour un système de défense antimissile qui ne sera pas compatible avec les systèmes de l'Otan", a déclaré une portte-parole du département de la Défense, ajoutant que le Pentagone continuait de discuter sur le sujet avec Ankara.

Six batteries de Patriot en Turquie

Les Etats-Unis, l'Allemagne et les Pays-Bas ont envoyé six batteries de missiles Patriot cette année dans le sud-est de la Turquie pour protéger le pays du risque de violences liées à la guerre civile en Syrie.

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-finance/industrie/aeronautique-defense/20130929trib000787704/defense-les-etats-unis-preoccupes-par-le-choix-de-la-turquie-d-acheter-un-systeme-d-armes-strategique-chinois.html  

Je pense que le dossier HQ-9 aboutira mais si il tombe a l'eau je sens un scenario comme je l'ai decris un peu en haut .

A voir.

arsenik a écrit:

Alloudi a écrit:

la grande inconnu, c est,

que vaut le HQ-9 par apport a ses concurent (PMU-2, patriot...?)  

j'avais vu dans un article que le HQ-9 avait des problème si je retrouve cette article je le poste


donc des gros doutes sur son efficacité.

la seule valeur sur c'est le patriot car il a été éprouvé par la guerre.

HQ9 c´est un croisé Patriot/S300,missile specs du dernier et electronics/radar du premier

il n´a pas de problemes a ce que je sache,a moins que tu lises la presse des pays concurrents dans un contexte de Bids..
les problemes que j´ai vu en video viennent du coté S300 surtout en phase start,d´ou les chinois ont choisit un start hot et pas cold comme les russes

Un avion de l'armée s'est crashé à Sivas, les pilotes ont pu s'éjecter, selon la presse c'est un Phantom.

Edit : Si c'est un F-4, c'est sans doute un 2020 ayant décollé de Malatya, wait & see ...

ah sivas  ..

Le Phantom a bien décollé de la base aérienne de Malatya (7e base/173e escadron).

C'est un RF-4E, les pilotes vont bien, pas de danger pour leur vie.

Une vue aérienne du chantier Naval de Golcuk/Kocaeli

Je vais préparer un post assez complet sur ses activités et ses compétences (notamment dans la construction de sous-marins). Pas tout de suite dans quelques jours, besoin d'un peu de temps.

y a plusieur HQ-9,

il est dit que HQ-9C serait equivalent au S-400 ( j ai du lire ça sur wiki, ou je ne sais plus ou)

Pour Info il y a pour ceux qui sont en France un article assez complet sur les Forces Armées Turques dans le Raids du mois d'octobre qui vient de paraitre

Alloudi a écrit:

y a plusieur HQ-9,

il est dit que HQ-9C serait equivalent au S-400 ( j ai du lire ça sur wiki, ou je ne sais plus ou)

J'ai des doutes la dessus vus que les russes sont présent sur le HQ-9 d'une manière ou d'une autre.

Alloudi a écrit:

y a plusieur HQ-9,

il est dit que HQ-9C serait equivalent au S-400 ( j ai du lire ça sur wiki, ou je ne sais plus ou)

Citation :

UPDATE 2-Turkey says Chinese missile deal not final

ANKARA, Sept 30 (Reuters) - Turkey said on Monday it could still reconsider its decision to co-produce a long-range air and missile defence system with a Chinese firm currently under U.S. sanctions, but said it felt no obligation to heed other countries' blacklists.

Turkey's Defence Ministry announced last week it had chosen the FD-2000 missile defence system from China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp, or CPMIEC, over rival systems from Russian, U.S. and European firms. Turkey is a member of the NATO transatlantic military alliance.

"We do not consider anything other than Turkey's interests," Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc told reporters.

"It is not possible for another country to say, 'I have a problem with them, I had put them on a black list, a red list, how could you give them a tender?'" said Arinc, who also serves as the government's spokesman.

CPMIEC is under U.S. sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act, and the United States has expressed "serious concerns" over Turkey's decision. NATO sources said collaboration with China on the system could raise questions of compatibility of weaponry and of security.

Arinc did not single out the United States in his criticism, saying comments from U.S. officials about the decision had been "respectful", but reiterated that Turkey did not need to consult on matters of domestic defence.

"We are a member of NATO and we have had good relations from the beginning with NATO countries, especially the United States. However, when it comes to the subject of defending Turkey ... we have the power to take a decision without looking to anyone else," he said.

Arinc said that while the deal had not yet been completed, the initial selection had been based on the Chinese offer being the most economical and because some of the production would be carried out in conjunction with Turkey.

In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said the United States has made clear its concerns to Turkey at a high level.

"We have conveyed our serious concerns about the Turkish government's contract discussions with the U.S.-sanctioned company for a missile defence system that will not be inter-operable with NATO systems or collective defence capabilities," Psaki told a daily briefing for reporters. "Our discussions will continue."

Psaki said the United States had taken note of comments by Turkey that the deal was not yet final. If a deal was finalised "then we will talk about that at that point," Psaki added.

DEAL NOT FINALISED

President Abdullah Gul was quoted by the English-language Hurriyet Daily News as saying: "The purchase is not definite. ... There is a short list and China is at the top of it. We should look at the conditions, but there is no doubt that Turkey is primarily in NATO."

Some Western defence analysts have said they were surprised by Turkey's decision, having expected the contract to go to Raytheon Co, a U.S. company that builds the Patriot missile, or the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T.

The United States, Germany and the Netherlands each sent two Patriot batteries and up to 400 soldiers to operate them to southeastern Turkey early this year after Ankara asked NATO for help with air defences against possible missile attacks from Syria.

Turkey has long been the closest U.S. ally in the Middle Eastern region, bordering during the Cold War on the Soviet Union. The U.S. military exercised great influence over a Turkish military that strongly influenced domestic politics.

Under Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, elected in 2002, the role of the Turkish military in politics has been curbed. Political and military relations between Ankara and Washington, while still close, play a less central role, and this could be reflected in procurement policy.

A source familiar with the competition said Turkey could still back away from its decision, describing Thursday's announcement as a "selection", not an actual contract award.

The next step was for Turkey to actually negotiate the terms of the deal with the Chinese provider, which could present opportunities to back away from the deal, said the source, adding that U.S. government and industry officials had not received any advance notice about Turkey's intentions.

Raytheon and other losing bidders hope to receive a briefing on the decision, but those meetings have not yet been scheduled. Industry executives hope to schedule those meetings this week.

Industry experts also said the decision appeared to have been based on cost, but they did not expect Raytheon to offer significant price concessions to secure the deal, given its big backlog of orders from other countries for the Patriot system and other missile defence equipment.

Asked about Turkey's decision, a NATO official said it was up to each nation to decide what military capabilities they acquire but that it was also the alliance's understanding the Turkish decision was not final.

"However, it is important for NATO that the capabilities allies acquire are able to operate together," the official said.

MAATAWI a écrit:

Alloudi a écrit:

y a plusieur HQ-9,

il est dit que HQ-9C serait equivalent au S-400 ( j ai du lire ça sur wiki, ou je ne sais plus ou)

Citation :

UPDATE 2-Turkey says Chinese missile deal not final

ANKARA, Sept 30 (Reuters) - Turkey said on Monday it could still reconsider its decision to co-produce a long-range air and missile defence system with a Chinese firm currently under U.S. sanctions, but said it felt no obligation to heed other countries' blacklists.

Turkey's Defence Ministry announced last week it had chosen the FD-2000 missile defence system from China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp, or CPMIEC, over rival systems from Russian, U.S. and European firms. Turkey is a member of the NATO transatlantic military alliance.

"We do not consider anything other than Turkey's interests," Turkish Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc told reporters.

"It is not possible for another country to say, 'I have a problem with them, I had put them on a black list, a red list, how could you give them a tender?'" said Arinc, who also serves as the government's spokesman.

CPMIEC is under U.S. sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act, and the United States has expressed "serious concerns" over Turkey's decision. NATO sources said collaboration with China on the system could raise questions of compatibility of weaponry and of security.

Arinc did not single out the United States in his criticism, saying comments from U.S. officials about the decision had been "respectful", but reiterated that Turkey did not need to consult on matters of domestic defence.

"We are a member of NATO and we have had good relations from the beginning with NATO countries, especially the United States. However, when it comes to the subject of defending Turkey ... we have the power to take a decision without looking to anyone else," he said.

Arinc said that while the deal had not yet been completed, the initial selection had been based on the Chinese offer being the most economical and because some of the production would be carried out in conjunction with Turkey.

In Washington, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said the United States has made clear its concerns to Turkey at a high level.

"We have conveyed our serious concerns about the Turkish government's contract discussions with the U.S.-sanctioned company for a missile defence system that will not be inter-operable with NATO systems or collective defence capabilities," Psaki told a daily briefing for reporters. "Our discussions will continue."

Psaki said the United States had taken note of comments by Turkey that the deal was not yet final. If a deal was finalised "then we will talk about that at that point," Psaki added.

DEAL NOT FINALISED

President Abdullah Gul was quoted by the English-language Hurriyet Daily News as saying: "The purchase is not definite. ... There is a short list and China is at the top of it. We should look at the conditions, but there is no doubt that Turkey is primarily in NATO."

Some Western defence analysts have said they were surprised by Turkey's decision, having expected the contract to go to Raytheon Co, a U.S. company that builds the Patriot missile, or the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T.

The United States, Germany and the Netherlands each sent two Patriot batteries and up to 400 soldiers to operate them to southeastern Turkey early this year after Ankara asked NATO for help with air defences against possible missile attacks from Syria.

Turkey has long been the closest U.S. ally in the Middle Eastern region, bordering during the Cold War on the Soviet Union. The U.S. military exercised great influence over a Turkish military that strongly influenced domestic politics.

Under Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, elected in 2002, the role of the Turkish military in politics has been curbed. Political and military relations between Ankara and Washington, while still close, play a less central role, and this could be reflected in procurement policy.

A source familiar with the competition said Turkey could still back away from its decision, describing Thursday's announcement as a "selection", not an actual contract award.

The next step was for Turkey to actually negotiate the terms of the deal with the Chinese provider, which could present opportunities to back away from the deal, said the source, adding that U.S. government and industry officials had not received any advance notice about Turkey's intentions.

Raytheon and other losing bidders hope to receive a briefing on the decision, but those meetings have not yet been scheduled. Industry executives hope to schedule those meetings this week.

Industry experts also said the decision appeared to have been based on cost, but they did not expect Raytheon to offer significant price concessions to secure the deal, given its big backlog of orders from other countries for the Patriot system and other missile defence equipment.

Asked about Turkey's decision, a NATO official said it was up to each nation to decide what military capabilities they acquire but that it was also the alliance's understanding the Turkish decision was not final.

"However, it is important for NATO that the capabilities allies acquire are able to operate together," the official said.

ça commence

Arsenik, quand tu quotes prends juste le titre au lieu de prendre tout l'article, ça alourdit la bdd inutilement  

Le Président & le vice PM ont montré des signes de fébrilité sur cette décision, faut voir ce que pense RTE.

"En 2013, la géopolitique en Turquie, se joue à 1 contre 1 (AKP vs USA) et à la fin c'est toujours les USA qui gagnent"  

Citation :

"We are a member of NATO and we have had good relations from the beginning with NATO countries, especially the United States. However, when it comes to the subject of defending Turkey ... we have the power to take a decision without looking to anyone else," he said.

Ca me rappelle le discours sur la visite à Gaza

Citation :

« La Turquie prend toutes ses décisions par sa propre volonté, et notamment en matière de politique étrangère. Il revient à notre Premier ministre et à nos responsables étatiques de décider eux-mêmes de la date et destination de leur voyage », a-t-il fait savoir, avant de préciser : « Nous lui [John Kerry] avons exprimé notre détermination à ce sujet et lui avons demandé d’éviter ce genre de déclaration ».

http://www.trtfrancais.com/fr/informations/detail/turquie/1/ahmet-davutoglu-lance-un-avertissement-john-/7758

   et ben voila une autre

Inanç a écrit:

Citation :

"We are a member of NATO and we have had good relations from the beginning with NATO countries, especially the United States. However, when it comes to the subject of defending Turkey ... we have the power to take a decision without looking to anyone else," he said.

Ca me rappelle le discours sur la visite à Gaza

Citation :

« La Turquie prend toutes ses décisions par sa propre volonté, et notamment en matière de politique étrangère. Il revient à notre Premier ministre et à nos responsables étatiques de décider eux-mêmes de la date et destination de leur voyage », a-t-il fait savoir, avant de préciser : « Nous lui [John Kerry] avons exprimé notre détermination à ce sujet et lui avons demandé d’éviter ce genre de déclaration ».

http://www.trtfrancais.com/fr/informations/detail/turquie/1/ahmet-davutoglu-lance-un-avertissement-john-/7758

Citation :

Turkey Pushes T-129 Gunships for Pakistan, but US Could Scupper Deal


SLAMABAD AND ANKARA — Turkey is aggressively lobbying to give T-129 attack helicopters to Pakistan to replace its aging AH-1F fleet and is prepared to agree to generous terms with cash-strapped Pakistan to do so, according to sources.

However, the US could sink the deal and make a counteroffer of helicopter gunships to Pakistan that could be too good to refuse.

Pakistani media reports state a deal with Turkey could lead to local production of the T-129 at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), but speculation that preparations are already underway to build a new helicopter production facility there could not be confirmed.

Turkey made its latest push during Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif’s Sept. 16-18 visit to Turkey for the Third High Level Cooperation Council meeting. Sharif was given a demonstration of the T-129’s capabilities and a potential deal was discussed.

Turkish officials confirmed talks have “matured to a certain extent,” and Turkey remains committed to any possible deal, not only for financial benefits but also potential strategic gains.

“We see that both countries are keen to cooperate,” said one senior procurement official in Ankara. “We have a longer-term vision over any deal. We do not aim to win just one foreign contract but also view spillover benefits for the local industry. The Pakistani market may win international recognition for the T-129 and pave the way for future contracts.”

The official declined to comment on the modality of any deal.

However, a Pakistani source familiar with the negotiations said Turkey had offered to gift three T-129 helicopters to Pakistan with 2,300 items of spares. The T-129 variant in question was not clarified. The initial T-129A is being used for flight testing while the full specification T-129B is still under development.

Turkey followed the same approach in securing a deal for MKEK 155mm Panter howitzers with Pakistan in 2009. It is now produced in Pakistan by Heavy Industries Taxila.

However, a Turkish procurement official dealing with international agreements and financing voiced doubt over Pakistan’s ability to afford a deal.

“We know that Pakistan is not in the best financial shape. But this could be overcome with political will,” he said.

Salma Malik, assistant professor at the Department of Defence & Strategic Studies at Islamabad’s Quaid-i-Azam University, is uncertain, but not dismissive, saying this “depends on how and what kind of budgetary allocation the concerned offices have, and how they have outlaid it.”

A more serious potential obstacle, however, is obtaining US permission to export the LHTEC CTS800-4N engine powering the T-129.

A US industry source in Ankara said a US export license for the T-129’s engine would be critical. “This may require complex deliberations in Washington, involving many industrial and political parameters,” he said.

Brian Cloughley, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, said Congress holds the key to the deal.

“It is most unlikely that either the White House or the Pentagon would attempt to deny an export license to Turkey for T-129 power plants and ancillaries, but the Defense Security Cooperation [Agency] is required to notify Congress of most proposed sales and obtain approval,” he said.

“Given the mood of Congress, it is extremely difficult to predict what they might or might not do. It takes only a couple of members or senators to demur, and the whole process could be halted. Everything depends on the political mood of the moment.”

Nevertheless, Turkey hopes the T-129 will be an export success.

In remarks carried by Turkish daily Today’s Zaman, Turkey’s procurement chief, Murad Bayar, said Sept. 23 that the T-129 attack helicopter “had strong export potential.”

The T-129 has been going through acceptance tests before deliveries for the Turkish military. Officials expect the first delivery to be made within the next few weeks.

“We may complete the delivery of the first nine helicopters by the end of the year,” Bayar said. “After these helicopters make their way into the Turkish inventory, I believe they will have strong chances for export.”

Azerbaijan is reportedly looking to buy 60 T-129 helicopters. Jordan’s King Abdullah, who was in Turkey in March, visited Turkish Aerospace Industries, co-maker of the T-129, and examined both the helicopter gunship and Turkey’s first locally-developed drone, the Anka.

Despite Turkey’s hopes, however, the US might try to tempt Pakistan with a deal for the AH-1Z Viper helicopter.

No one at the defense section in the US Embassy would comment on the matter, but details were confirmed by sources in Pakistan familiar with the deal.

Pakistan has been awarded US $300 million in foreign military financing for FY2013-2014, which could be used to procure the Viper attack helicopters, made by Bell.

This is part of a wider deal discussed during US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter’s trip to Islamabad on Sept. 17.

Cloughley, however, does not believe Pakistan will be tempted.

“I do not think that Pakistan would be tempted to ditch the T-129 deal if there were an offer of Vipers. There might be a good deal proposed by the US, but operating costs are high and would [argue] against acceptance. Further, and probably more significant, there is decided and most strong opposition in Pakistan to further deals with the US.”

je suis SCANDALISÉ  par la maniere avec laquelle les US maltraitent la Turquie,un soit disant "allié" et membre Otan  WTF
aw meme le Maroc moins important pour eux les a envoyé paitre en avril que ca les a forcé de retropedaler

franchement j´attend pour compter combien de G aura la manoeuvre turc pour retourner sur leur decision,la danse du ventre de ses politiciens est devenue une constante ici depuis 2010

un peu de cojones lan  restez de marbre

Rien d'étonnant, les US l'ont fait le coup avec le rafale contre les français ...
Mais là clairement ils montrent que l'export d'armement est une arme pour leur politique étrangère, et de tout évidence ils cherchent à garder le Pakistan dans leur giron...  
De toute évidence ils vont proposé un deal à perte ...( FMF de 300M$)

Mais si j'aurais un conseil à donner à la TAI c'est de regarder un second fournisseur pour les turbines...

MAATAWI a écrit:

   et ben voila une autre

Si Bernardo s'exprime pour se foutre de notre gueule, les gouvernants doivent vraiment passer pour des guignols  

Tout ce qui est écrit ici, je le dis depuis des années et j'ait été le 1er à alerter sur les conséquences de ce deal possible ...

Que personne ne s'attende à ce que je défends un gouvernement sur lequel je vomis

Je pourrais exposer de long en large nos pertes vis à vis des US si on donne ce contrat aux Chinois.

Mais bon, je passe pour l'opposant de service, ça doit faire chier certains donc je m'abstiens ... parfois.

Au contraire exprime toi inanç c'est pas la corée du nord ici copyright yaku!

Je suis du même avis que Yaku, l'attitude des USA est scandaleuse à votre encontre, Erdogan si il ne tape pas du point sur la table passera encore plus pour un guignol et un faible... ainsi que la Turquie avec