* Suppositions : futurs achats des FRA *

Rappel du premier message :

Le Maroc n'a pas besoin de AWACS et AEWC Aircraft..

Les qu'il est ont commandés se sont fait avoir pour la plupart.

Après faut voir quelle est la région..

Bruce Wayne a écrit:

Avec tout ces problèmes et ses soucis j’arrive toujours pas à comprendre comme t le F35 peut-etre considéré comme un potentiel candidat…il nous faudra un biréacteur et pour moi 2 candidats F15 ou Rafale politiquement, le choix le plus safe c’est le Rafale
Sans compter qu’avec le F16V il faudra commencer a remplacer les alphajets, de ce fait je suis d’accord avec le frere darkvador le M346 est un bon candidat qui peut aussi faire du CAS/ et du CAP, il faudra tot ou tard un demultiplicateur de force je pense a un AEWC (les G550 ou un embraer qu’on customisera) +chantier helicos et avions transports +tanker,donc prendre quelque chose (F35) qui va nous bouffer $$$ en mco est yn mauvais calcul

Feriez-vous confiance aux Allemands pour qu'ils vous donnent le feu vert pour abattre des su30 mkaka au-dessus du Mahbes avec des Meteors ?

@chwihi

1-Rafale never had CFT , ever .
Meanwhile F16I (Sufa) which was one of the first F16s to carry CFT had combat radius of 1600km according to the most conservative estimates .
Here is an article detailing this , and explaining how much fuel and range those CFT add (and of course drag etc etc)

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/f-16i.htm



2-Why would i stay out at 100km if i can shoot at my enemy at 60km, the perfect no escape one , while my enemy has no clue that i am even there . Don’t bring 4th gen logic to 5th gen brutality. Sukhois speed and cobra-cadabra wont help . Check ruskiz review over what happened over western syria, F22 wasnt there until it did

3-Yeah , until 2024 , always late to the party.

By the way , you know that backlog of Rafale F4 runs until 2030 , the earliest , right?

elite17 a écrit:

@chwihi

1-Rafale never had CFT , ever .
Meanwhile F16I (Sufa) which was one of the first F16s to carry CFT had combat radius of 1600km according to the most conservative estimates .
Here is an article detailing this , and explaining how much fuel and range those CFT add (and of course drag etc etc)

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/f-16i.htm



2-Why would i stay out at 100km if i can shoot at my enemy at 60km, the perfect no escape one , while my enemy has no clue that i am even there . Don’t bring 4th gen logic to 5th gen brutality. Sukhois speed and cobra-cadabra wont help . Check ruskiz review over what happened over western syria, F22 wasnt there until it did

3-Yeah , until 2024 , always late to the party.

By the way , you know that backlog of Rafale F4 runs until 2030 , the earliest , right?

1-Rafale always had CFT since day one, France just didn't ordered them but they were evaluated and you can order at export, it's a pretty known fact, here are some photos



The only numbers i will keep from this article is ''F-16 has a combat radius of 740 nm (1,370 km) with two 2,000-lb bombs and two AIM-9, with 1,040 US gal external tanks'' because a weapon configuration is given.
''The F-16ES featured additional fuel in one 1,136 liter (300 US gallon; 250 Imp gallon) centerline tank and two wing tanks, each 2,271 litre (600 US gallons; 500 Imp gallons), as well as two conformal tanks. The combat radius extended to in excess of 1,000 nautical miles (1,852 km; 1,151 miles)'' gives us informations but there are no weapon configuration given so half of data is missing there.

2-Who said you will necessarly be able to shoot your enemy at 60km? In enemy territory? Stealth only delays detection, it doesn't cancel it.  Anyway, speed matters, always. Nobody talked about cobra maneuver, please stay in the subject.

3-Who cares? We are talking about Rafale F4 that we could buy, not the Rafale from last decade.

About backlogs, i suggested to do like Greece, buying 12 used Rafale F4 to get them quickly and 12 new that we will receive later.
By the way Serbia ordered this summer and will be delivered in 2028. So backlogs doesn't work like FIFO. If we only have 12 new Rafale we can get them in 2029.

En plus le F35 n'est pas le F22, arrêtons de comparer une plateforme combat proven, bi-réacteur hyper maneuvrable et qui tape du Mach2 et capable de décoller à 35 tonnes, avec une plateforme concues pour la marine, jamais testée en conditions réelles, monoréacteur, avec la maneuvrabilité d'un bombardier qui plafonne à mach 1,6 et à 25 tonnes. Ce n'est pas parce que les deux sont 5G que les qualités de l'un peuvent être transférés à l'autre.

Edit : Et je ne parle même pas du super cruise.

If you want to bring concepts lets talk about the F15 Silent Eagle , a “stealthy” f15 with RAM coating . We are here talking about facts , not what could have been , Rafale has no CFT , and no , the cost for adding them is staggering that even indians dropped the idea.

2- I think you take stealth as just RAM coating and that’s it , no it’s a whole concept and no, it doesnt just delay detection it almost cancels it . If a radar has 250km range against a large sukhoi that number decrease to 5 or 10 kms , thats without talking about EW , stealth makes the aircraft use less energy so more beam towards suppressing enemy radars . F35 slaughtered everyone in Red Flag , in every single scenario. Typhoons , F15s , Gripen , everything and everyone , not a chance .
An F35 can come behind a Su35 at even 30, 20 km or whatever range , and it will molest it , it will have absolutely no idea that it is even there. Not even the Eurofighter with its PIRATE (IRST) could do thing.

Ask the UAE what was their first choice before they were turned down.

Come on man, 12 used rafale...you just contradicted your own statements about the latest versions that have cool things in them since you are talking about close parity with F15EX or F35...and getting old means no upgrade to F5...I mean you are not buying a Toyota here but a top of the line Investment nothing but new would do imo. Greece is a NATO country and they have different realities, partnerships, and needs. I don't see us ever doing large investments into our air force with this second hand logic; given for free and upgraded that's one thing, buying old is such a stupid thing to do while likely the cost delta isn't as large (and upgrading right away costs a pretty penny and takes a lot of time)

Zakaria a écrit:

Le f16V ne suffit pas face au su30?
18 ou 24 viper supplémentaires + 2 awacs casher et attendre après 2030 pour un bi réacteur
afin de se concentrer sur les helico de manoeuvre, les vci et surtout la marine
J’espère quelque gowind avec la visite de macron

Oui le Viper suffit bien assez face au Su-30 à 48 contre 70, mais le problème est qu'ils ne vont pas se contenter de nous attendre avec leurs Su30 et leurs Mig29 à moitié potables. On peut s'attendre d'ici 2030 à une commande et livraison de Su-57 ou de Su-35s ou d'Eurofighter grâce aux Italiens qui sait? (très peu probable mais pas impossible), et à une mise à niveau de tous les SU-30 MKA ou presque au niveau SM2.
En fait il est difficile de dire quoi mais il y a de très fortes chances pour qu'ils commandent un nouvel appareil plus avancé que les MKA.
Et alors on sera face à un problème de nombre (retour à la situation précédente).

Le problème avec avoir des Viper supplémentaires... c'est d'en avoir
Avec les tensions avec la Chine, Taiwan est prioritaire et au vu des retards ils auront fini d'être livrés en 2027. Et avec toutes les autres commandes en cours et sûrement les futures, je ne pense pas qu'on verrait la couleur du 1er Viper supplémentaire avant 2029 voire 2030.
Mais j'espère me tromper

Zakaria a écrit:

Le f16V ne suffit pas face au su30?
18 ou 24 viper supplémentaires + 2 awacs casher et attendre après 2030 pour un bi réacteur
afin de se concentrer sur les helico de manoeuvre, les vci et surtout la marine
J’espère quelque gowind avec la visite de macron

Le f16v aplati la vache volante mais il en manque et ajoute a ça qu'il faut préparer l'avenir lez cellules des f1 et f5 c'est à bout dr souffle donc la temporalité n'est pas infini , je suis d'accord la marine la cest plus possible dans cette état

Je comprends mieux on anticipe les futures commandes de l’ennemi
Après difficile pour eux aussi d’avoir de nouveaux vecteurs russe au vue de la guerre en Ukraine

Zakaria a écrit:

Je comprends mieux on anticipe les futures commandes de l’ennemi
Après difficile pour eux aussi d’avoir de nouveaux vecteurs russe au vue de la guerre en Ukraine

Chinois ils pourraient

Antares a écrit:

Come on man, 12 used rafale...you just contradicted your own statements about the latest versions that have cool things in them since you are talking about close parity with F15EX or F35...and getting old means no upgrade to F5...I mean you are not buying a Toyota here but a top of the line Investment nothing but new would do imo. Greece is a NATO country and they have different realities, partnerships, and needs. I don't see us ever doing large investments into our air force with this second hand logic; given for free and upgraded that's one thing, buying old is such a stupid thing to do while likely the cost delta isn't as large (and upgrading right away costs a pretty penny and takes a lot of time)

How the French do with their F3R Rafale? They upgrade them to F4 standard.
So we can buy used F3R Rafale and get them after upgrade. And not old ones, used ones but enough recent.
If Greece can do it why we could not do it too. By the way the cost delta is nearly 100 M€ per plane.

Ok, let's not get 12 Rafale of 10 years old upgraded to F4 standard just to feel proud enough and let's stay with no solution until 2030.

Mais bon être si confident dans ce domaine que le 16V applatit les vecteurs adversaires si facilement et en grand nombre c'est pas réaliste. Les redflag montrent que n'importe quel appareil peut être surpris tactiquement, mieux vaut avoir du nombre et de l'entraînement constant

Perso je rejoins l'idée de 24 f16v de plus pour une livraison avant 2030, un remplacement de nos alphabets dans 4 ans, et un bi réacteur mature commandé en 2030 pour livraison en 2035

elite17 a écrit:

If you want to bring concepts lets talk about the F15 Silent Eagle , a “stealthy” f15 with RAM coating . We are here talking about facts , not what could have been , Rafale has no CFT , and no , the cost for adding them is staggering that even indians dropped the idea.

2- I think you take stealth as just RAM coating and that’s it , no it’s a whole concept and no, it doesnt just delay detection it almost cancels it . If a radar has 250km range against a large sukhoi that number decrease to 5 or 10 kms , thats without talking about EW , stealth makes the aircraft use less energy so more beam towards suppressing enemy radars . F35 slaughtered everyone in Red Flag , in every single scenario. Typhoons , F15s , Gripen , everything and everyone , not a chance .
An F35 can come behind a Su35 at even 30, 20 km or whatever range , and it will molest it , it will have absolutely no idea that it is even there. Not even the Eurofighter with its PIRATE (IRST) could do thing.

Ask the UAE what was their first choice before they were turned down.

Naaah really you are just dishonest i bring you the Rafale CFT and you keep saying they don't exist. YES Rafale has CFT, it's not a concept, French forces don't use it that's all! It's not a pride competition, we want to talk about facts.

elite17 a écrit:

1-Rafale never had CFT , ever .

That's foolishness and trying to lure us with ''what could have been blablabla'' is really immature.

Secondly, stealth delays detection because it will be detected later, which for an attacking plane means closer.
You throw numbers ''5 or 10kms'' 20km or whatever the range''...
How do you know that? If you think, believe or extrapolate that's great but don't mislead people with guesses that you assume are true.
What about land radar systems? With different bands? Remember what detected and destroyed a F117 Nighthawk in 1999.
F35 has a better stealth but the radars are also better.
Underestimating opponents is really the worst

Red Flag you need to know and explain what were the conditions, the rules of engagement etc

@chwihi : there are no CFT on Rafale , otherwise every costumer would have taken them, especially the Greek , they loved them and they were one of the first to put them on their F16

Yeah , the F117 , the one that hundreds of sorties, to be downed one time , give me that ratio and i’ll take it anytime of the day. And yeah , while the US were fighting their second war with their stealth fighter , the frenchiz were still struggling to make a proper 4th gen fighter , that says much.

And for the rules of engagement in Red Flag :you bring your 4th gen to be humiliated against F35 in all scenarios , the sissy frenchies couldnt be brave to put up , so Indians had to do the show this year in Alaska only to come back with some awakening gaps.

Here is what they do in Red flag to 4th gen

Citation :

Proof of performance can be found in numerous areas, but perhaps some of the most compelling data comes from the Red Flag exercises, which afford the most realistic air combat training in the world. In its first Red Flag, the F-35 achieved a 20 to 1 kill ratio in aerial engagements against adversaries. In other words, F-35s destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft for each F-35 “lost” in simulated combat. No other aircraft, aside from the F-35’s F-22 cousin, performs at this level of effectiveness.

And in real world , between israeli hands , they are trolling on those s300 and s400 pro max in the region .

But its not all gloom , by the time F35 reaches block 4 , the frenchiz maybe will have an anti-radiation missile

Far away from some analysis. The reality on the ground:

Citation :

The United Arab Emirates would seek to revive a multi-billion dollar deal with the U.S. for F-35 warplanes and armed drones if Donald Trump wins a second term as president in November, several people familiar with the matter told Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/uae-ask-trump-fulfil-f-35-deal-if-hes-re-elected-sources-say-2024-09-13/

Their Rafale will replace the 2000-9 and F35 will replace the Block 60.
Nothing new it's their doctrine to have both. Even if they had the F35 in the first place (for a really bad price by the way) they would have get another nation fighter afterwards.

If you take DSCA prices for serious , then you dont know much about how things go in the US

elite17 a écrit:

If you take DSCA prices for serious , then you dont know much about how things go in the US

What differed from DSCA declared price with what we paid for the Vipers?

What DSCA price do you have in mind when I talk about UAE contract and what serious price do you assume instead?

chwihi a écrit:

elite17 a écrit:

If you take DSCA prices for serious , then you dont know much about how things go in the US

What differed from DSCA declared price with what we paid for the Vipers?

What DSCA price do you have in mind when I talk about UAE contract and what serious price do you assume instead?

DSCA always declare maximum possible price so it can be approved once in the congress , and without needing a revote in case the prices were higher than what was tought earlier.

For example : you can see below how the Qatari F15 costs 293m$/piece according to DSCA (without munitions or anything related)

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/government-qatar-f-15qa-aircraft-weapons-and-related-support

But in reality this is what qatar paid : 172m$/piece

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/12/23/pentagon-boeing-wins-6-2bn-contract-for-qatars-f-15

elite17 a écrit:

For example : you can see below how the Qatari F15 costs 293m$/piece according to DSCA (without munitions or anything related)

It is written the exact opposite of what you say

Citation :

The Government of Qatar requested to purchase seventy-two (72) F-15QA multi-role fighter aircraft and associated weapons package; the provision for continental United States based Lead-in-Fighter-Training for the F-15QA; associated ground support; training materials; mission critical resources and maintenance support equipment; the procurement for various weapon support and test equipment spares; technical publications; personnel training; simulators and other training equipment; U.S. Government and contractor engineering; technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated total program value is $21.1 billion.

List any weapons on that deal

Intellectual dishonesty again, you say a blatant nonsense and you change the subject when I show you your contradictions.

See, talking with you is a waste of time and lowers the level of this forum. I am not gonna play this game with you anymore and will let the other members talk about something meaningful and useful.

“Intellectual dishonesty”? Is it like a new term for -I cant make a proper arguments?
My bad , i thought i was talking with someone worth it .

Well guys the conversation was fun to watch, I guess the takeway that we can agree on is to get more f-16V asap and let our air force decide the next vector in peace depending on their doctrine (bi-engine, or stealth, or political/defense umbrella)

i don't know why but i don't feel comfortable with buying 100% USA
I can't deny they the best
but diplomaticly and politics taken into the equation if money was no problem the best would be buying a mix of Chinese + anything western
specially if Chinese are open to sharing parts and munition production locally