Le Rafale

Rappel du premier message :

Ça a été une sacré aventure ce projet de vente de Rafale au Maroc, pleine de rebondissements, d'entourloupes, de fausses infos, de vrais (et de faux) démentis, de vendeurs qui n'en étaient pas, de négociateurs qui se tiraient dans les pattes, etc, bref, du grand art.

C'est surtout les capacités du tireur qui sont en cause et la qualité de l'illumination de la cible. Merci aussi à Damoclès!

non pierrot pas la cible qui se deplace a une vitesse du jet bien sure,mais l´avion tireur qui doit lacher en vitesse max pour donner une vitesse initiale V° consequente.
ca vaut aussi dans less combats BVR pour optimiser la portée
la cible ne doit que cooperer gentillement et attendre a la distance voulue (60/70km)

Vous êtes des briseurs d'illusions Mais vous avez raison, je dois bien l'admettre...

Pour retrouver tes illusions dit toi que cet exploit résulte de l'amalgame des capacités du tireur, du PDL damoclès, de l'AASM.

Non, non c'est inutile. Mes illusions sont perdues à tout jamais...

Citation :

“Omnirole” Rafale Steals Lead Over Eurofighter Typhoon in Libyan Operations

While NATO forces fielded the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon in the UN-mandated war against Gaddafi’s forces in Libya, details emerging from briefings by the U.K. and French air forces about the use of their respective fighters tell that the Rafale was the primary attack plane while the Eurofighter Typhoon provided intelligence through its targeting pods.

With the Libyan hostilities over, the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon face off one another in an estimated $11 billion tender for India’s Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) acquisition, the price bids for which are scheduled to be opened in the first week of November.

The Rafale, which is yet to receive an international order, has never come so close to finding a foreign customer. The Dassault fighter made the shortlist along with the Eurofighter Typhoon after a nearly two year evaluation of European, American and Russian fighters.

No sooner than NATO announced a no-fly zone over the Rebel stronghold of Benghazi in Libya earlier this year, French Rafale and Mirage 2000 jets zoomed across the Mediterranean sea attacking Libyan ground-based military targets, a move which many critics say was prompted to exhibit the French jet’s fighting capabilities to potential customers.

Later at the Paris Air show in June 2011, French Air Force officials briefed the media about what the Rafale jets did in Libya. “The Omnirole” capabilities of the Rafale, meaning air-to-air, air-to-ground and intelligence gathering were used during missions. The Rafales had to scan the skies for fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters besides anti-aircraft missiles of Gaddafi’s forces and attack them during the same mission. Often the mission profile had to be modified during an operation as fresh intelligence emerged of the enemy’s offensive assets.

The Rafale armaments for the Libyan operations included two infrared and two active radar radio frequency MBDA Mica air-to-air missiles mounted on the wingtips and wing root of the plane. The IR seekers on the missiles act as stealthy sensors. For ground attack, there were four Raytheon GBU-12 Paveway 2 laser-guided bombs. French pilots have dropped more than 100 GBU-12 weapons in Libya, officers said. A Thales Damocles laser targeting pod under the wing allows the pilot to achieve precise targeting. A Nexter 30mm canon is fitted on the Rafale for close ground attack.

On different missions the Rafales also carried the Sagem Smart Bomb Unit with GPS/INS guidance. The guided propelled bomb has a 60-kilometer range.

The French Air Force also fired 10 MBDA Scalp cruise missiles in deep strike missions, an Air Force officer had said during the briefing. In contrast, the UK Air Force deployed the Typhoon in a supporting role to its older generation aircraft, the Tornado. In a briefing about the Libyan operations, the UK's Commander of Joint Operations (CJO), Air Marshal Sir Stuart Peach last week explained that the “complimentary way” in which the Typhoons worked alongside the Tornados, using their targeting pods to create additional intelligence and reconnaissance, “was very important”. The Tornados carried British-designed and British-built Brimstone missiles, which proved to be a world class weapon system, the Air Marshal was quoted as saying in a U.K MoD release. The Brimstone missile have been offered to India as part of the MMRCA weapons package.

In separate briefings, U.K. officials have been quoted as saying that the Typhoon flew 600 combat missions but surprisingly details of its offensive role in terms of enemy targets engaged have not been forthcoming. A briefing was given to top Indian Air Force officials last month about the weapons used by the Eurofighter Tornado and Typhoon. Reports of the briefing tell that MBDA Brimstone air-to-surface missiles were launched from RAF's Tornado GR4 fighters. In addition Storm Shadow missiles were fired from Tornado GR4s to destroy radar stations and anti-aircraft batteries. There has been no mention of what weapons the Typhoon carried.

A Dassault executive who did not wish to be identified said that the Eurofighter Typhoon which is clearly not meant for a multi-mission role played at best a supporting role in the Libyan operations.

defenseworld

Citation :

Future weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/typhooneurofighter.cfm

Citation :

Dual Mode Brimstone is in-service on Tornado GR4/4A and is a candidate for integration on the RAF’s Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35 JCA aircraft.

http://www.eads.com/eads/int/en/news/press.e0b4539a-74dc-4f54-9e24-483bd08aef31.html

la réplique Francaise contre l article anglais sur le pretendu choix indien,allez le dernier dogfight est ouvert

C'est trop marrant!

Sur un forum indien, suite à cet article :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/end-this-mmrca-hara-kiri.html

Le souhait d'un certain nombre d'indien est que l'appel d'offre soit annulée, car il sonsidère que le rafale et l'eurofigther sont inférieurs au J20, et que le J20 est une vraie menace pour l'inde.

Ils aimeraient avoir le F35 avec tout le transfert de techno qui va bien.

Cela reste qu'un blog et un forum, mais je trouve qu'il est toujours intéressent de connaitre les différentes idées des gens.

Mais ça, ça nous intéresse, car c'est une idée neuve.

rafi a écrit:

Mais ça, ça nous intéresse, car c'est une idée neuve.

La question est de savoir si c'est le constructeur du F35 qui pousse cette idée, ou le J20 est-il un vrai danger ?

Pour contrer le projet J-20 alors même qu'il n'existait pas, mais on ne sait jamais, l'Inde s'était tournée vers les russes et le PAK-FA/FGFA Su-T50, avion de combat de 5ème génération.

rafi a écrit:

Pour contrer le projet J-20 alors même qu'il n'existait pas, mais on ne sait jamais, l'Inde s'était tournée vers les russes et le PAK-FA/FGFA Su-50, avion de combat de 5ème génération.

D'ailleur le T50 avance : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/india-russia-close-to-agreement-on-next.html

Franchement là, les Indiens commencent à gonfler. Il y toujours quelque chose qui va pas.
Ils avaient annoncés leur décision pour Novembre...
Et maintenant qu'on est en Novembre, v'là autre chose.
Qu'est-ce qu'ils cherchent à la fin???

La supériorité aérienne totale sur les voisins en diversifiant les sources d'approvisionnement et l'adaptation des moyens à leur environnement tactique et stratégique!

C'est de bonne guerre cette article ,surtout que c'est la vérité ,le Typhoon est pas top en air sol...hein Rafi

Allez l'on verra bien ce qu'en pensent les Indiens....................
Politiquement l'UK a l'air encore tres active dans le coin, quid de la France ,c'est cela qui peut faire la difference.

Ce que pensent les indiens est un chose, ce que pensent les dirigeants de l'Inde, c'en est une autre, et c'est la décision de ces derniers qui comptera. C'est que que contiennent les enveloppes qui fera la différence.

Mode Bisounours:
-Des dessous de table

En gros l'argent prime sur les qualités de ces avions.

charly a écrit:

Sur un forum indien, suite à cet article :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/end-this-mmrca-hara-kiri.html

Le souhait d'un certain nombre d'indien est que l'appel d'offre soit annulée, car il sonsidère que le rafale et l'eurofigther sont inférieurs au J20, et que le J20 est une vraie menace pour l'inde.

Ils aimeraient avoir le F35 avec tout le transfert de techno qui va bien.

Cela reste qu'un blog et un forum, mais je trouve qu'il est toujours intéressent de connaitre les différentes idées des gens.

Apparemment les USA sont prêts à donner les informations à l’inde sur Le JSF

sa risquerait de bouleversé leur choix du nouvelle Avion de combat Rafale vs eurofigther

Voila un article se qu’a dit charly

Citation :

Pentagon Awaits India’s Interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 Fighter

The U.S. Defense Department offered India technology sharing and talks on its top weapons program, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, to gain more security cooperation in the face of regional competition from China.

“Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements,” including on security and infrastructure, the Defense Department said yesterday in a congressionally mandated report on U.S.-India security cooperation.

More joint work on science and technology “may lead to co- development opportunities with India as a partner,” the Defense Department said in the report.

The nine-page review of defense ties with India was prepared in response to a legislative provision sponsored earlier this year by Senate Armed Services Committee members Joe Lieberman, a Connecticut independent, and John Cornyn, a Texas Republican. Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin builds the F-35 in Texas. United Technologies Corp. makes the plane’s engines in Connecticut.

“Our two governments must be proactive in finding new ways to take on emerging security challenges together,” Lieberman said yesterday in an e-mail, citing cybersecurity and counterterrorism.

Nuclear Technology

The report reflects the desire by successive U.S. administrations to convince India to increase security cooperation and buy American equipment as it expands and modernizes its military. The push included a years-long fight for congressional approval in 2008 of an agreement intended to clear the way for U.S. manufacturers such as General Electric Co. to sell India nuclear-energy technology.

The U.S. expected the nuclear-energy agreement to help increase a range of technology sales to India, especially in the defense sector.

The Pentagon report alludes to disappointing results. It cites the “setback” in April, when Lockheed’s F-16 jet fighter and Boeing Co.’s F/A-18 Super Hornet were eliminated from the $11 billion Indian competition to replace the subcontinent’s aging fleet of 1970s-era MiG-21s.

Aircraft on the shortlist were Dassault Aviation SA’s Rafale and the Eurofighter made by BAE Systems Plc, Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co.

Weapons Cooperation

Lockheed Martin said in June it may offer the F-35 stealth fighter to India. The Cornyn-Lieberman requirement for the security cooperation report helped open an avenue to do that, Lockheed Senior Vice President Patrick Dewar said in a June interview at the Paris Air Show.

Laurie Quincy, a spokeswoman for Lockheed Martin, declined to comment on yesterday’s report.

India has urged the U.S. to give it more access to technology so that the two countries can develop weapons together. The Pentagon acknowledged that goal in the report.

“The United States wants to develop deeper defense industrial cooperation with India, including a range of cooperative research and development,” they wrote in the assessment. “The United States is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology.”

The Cornyn-Lieberman provision had called for the Pentagon to assess the potential for jointly developing equipment such as a replacement for the U.S. Air Force T-38 trainer jet. Yesterday’s report didn’t specifically address that system.

Efforts for the next five years will place “particular emphasis on maritime security and counterterrorism activities and expanding defense trade and armaments cooperation,” the Pentagon reported.

businessweek

MAATAWI a écrit:

charly a écrit:

Sur un forum indien, suite à cet article :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/11/end-this-mmrca-hara-kiri.html

Le souhait d'un certain nombre d'indien est que l'appel d'offre soit annulée, car il sonsidère que le rafale et l'eurofigther sont inférieurs au J20, et que le J20 est une vraie menace pour l'inde.

Ils aimeraient avoir le F35 avec tout le transfert de techno qui va bien.

Cela reste qu'un blog et un forum, mais je trouve qu'il est toujours intéressent de connaitre les différentes idées des gens.

Apparemment les USA sont prêts à donner les informations à l’inde sur Le JSF

sa risquerait de bouleversé leur choix du nouvelle Avion de combat Rafale vs eurofigther

Voila un article se qu’a dit charly

Citation :

Pentagon Awaits India’s Interest in Lockheed Martin F-35 Fighter


The U.S. Defense Department offered India technology sharing and talks on its top weapons program, Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, to gain more security cooperation in the face of regional competition from China.

“Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements,” including on security and infrastructure, the Defense Department said yesterday in a congressionally mandated report on U.S.-India security cooperation.

More joint work on science and technology “may lead to co- development opportunities with India as a partner,” the Defense Department said in the report.

The nine-page review of defense ties with India was prepared in response to a legislative provision sponsored earlier this year by Senate Armed Services Committee members Joe Lieberman, a Connecticut independent, and John Cornyn, a Texas Republican. Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin builds the F-35 in Texas. United Technologies Corp. makes the plane’s engines in Connecticut.

“Our two governments must be proactive in finding new ways to take on emerging security challenges together,” Lieberman said yesterday in an e-mail, citing cybersecurity and counterterrorism.

Nuclear Technology

The report reflects the desire by successive U.S. administrations to convince India to increase security cooperation and buy American equipment as it expands and modernizes its military. The push included a years-long fight for congressional approval in 2008 of an agreement intended to clear the way for U.S. manufacturers such as General Electric Co. to sell India nuclear-energy technology.

The U.S. expected the nuclear-energy agreement to help increase a range of technology sales to India, especially in the defense sector.

The Pentagon report alludes to disappointing results. It cites the “setback” in April, when Lockheed’s F-16 jet fighter and Boeing Co.’s F/A-18 Super Hornet were eliminated from the $11 billion Indian competition to replace the subcontinent’s aging fleet of 1970s-era MiG-21s.

Aircraft on the shortlist were Dassault Aviation SA’s Rafale and the Eurofighter made by BAE Systems Plc, Finmeccanica SpA and European Aeronautic, Defense & Space Co.

Weapons Cooperation

Lockheed Martin said in June it may offer the F-35 stealth fighter to India. The Cornyn-Lieberman requirement for the security cooperation report helped open an avenue to do that, Lockheed Senior Vice President Patrick Dewar said in a June interview at the Paris Air Show.

Laurie Quincy, a spokeswoman for Lockheed Martin, declined to comment on yesterday’s report.

India has urged the U.S. to give it more access to technology so that the two countries can develop weapons together. The Pentagon acknowledged that goal in the report.

“The United States wants to develop deeper defense industrial cooperation with India, including a range of cooperative research and development,” they wrote in the assessment. “The United States is committed to providing India with top-of-the-line technology.”

The Cornyn-Lieberman provision had called for the Pentagon to assess the potential for jointly developing equipment such as a replacement for the U.S. Air Force T-38 trainer jet. Yesterday’s report didn’t specifically address that system.

Efforts for the next five years will place “particular emphasis on maritime security and counterterrorism activities and expanding defense trade and armaments cooperation,” the Pentagon reported.

businessweek

Reste le coût pour sauver l'industrie européenne.

Et le fait que l'inde et la russie bossent sur la génération 5.

Ensuite il y a eu un article (que je ne retrouve pas) qui remet en cause la 5ème génération (sauf F22).

L'analyse était la suivante :

Pour être un avion de 5ème génération donc furtif, il fallait faire l'impasse sur un certain nombre de performance.
Hors avec l'avancé technologique des radars, la furtivité des F35 (par exemple), n'allait pas être quelque chose de durable, par contre les impasses fait sur certaines performances allaient devenir un réel handicape.

Faut voir ce que va nous réserver l'avenir.

L'avenir sera à la dronisation Charly !
Quand on répertorie les faiblesses d'un système d'armes aussi complexe que les avions de combats, il faut admettre que le facteur "humain" est le maillon faible...

PGM

Je ne pense pas qu'il faille encore s'inquiéter car ce n'est pas la première fois qu'une proposition de vente de gré à gré se fait après qu'un avionneur n'a pas été sélectionné, ou ne croit pouvoir l'être, lors d'une compétition internationale. C'est même monnaie courante...

Citation :

Alors que s'ouvre le salon Aero India (2007) qui se tient à Bangalore, selon le quotidien La Tribune, Dassault Aviation devrait proposer, au ministère de la Défense indien, une offre non sollicitée, portant sur la vente de 40 avions de combat de type Rafale. Dassault Aviation formule cette offre alors que l'armée de l'air indienne est en passe de présenter un appel d'offres concernant l'acquisition de 126 avions de combat. Un marché estimé entre 5 et 7 milliards de dollars. Le constructeur aéronautique estime ne pas avoir ses chances dans cet appel d'offres et affirme qu'il se résumera à un match russo-américain. Si cette proposition de Dassault Aviation était acceptée par Delhi, elle entrerait alors dans le cadre d'une procédure de gré à gré entre l'avionneur et le ministère de la Défense indien.

http://www.investir.fr/infos-conseils-boursiers/infos-conseils-valeurs/infos/40-rafale-proposes-au-gouvernement-indien-150695.php

Les Indiens vont ils se mettrent dans cette arlésienne qu'est le F35 sachant qu'ils travaillent déjà avec les Russes.

Pourquoi arlesienne, il vole le F-35 que je sache? Le premier vol du démonstrateur X-35A date d'octobre 2000 et le premier vol du F-35B date de juin 2008. Le programme a 11 ans par rapport au X-35A et 3,5 ans par rapport au F-35B.